Stormcloaks or Imperials, who is right?

[Thu'um]

After a brief debate during game night I thought it might prove an intresting topic. I and every one i know in real life has sided stormcloaks, the only exception being my sister who didn't give a crap and just did waht ever. So who is right, and why?

[The Shaper]

Early on the Stormcloaks to me seemed to be in the right but now I am starting to think that their idea of a rebellion is actually not a very good one. For one thing all they seem to care about are Nords. There are more than just Nords in Skyrim let alone the rest of the empire. Second of all the Stormcloaks aren't very powerful on their own so when and if the Aldmeri Dominion decides to strike back at Skyrim for violating their treaty I really don't think they have what it takes to defend it. Third while the empire may not be in very good shape, they are at least still around. It's true they are more like a vassal state to the Thalmor than anything else, but at some point they may very well have what it takes to defeat them. Oh also Ulfric is a total prick.

[Thu'um]

Early on the Stormcloaks to me seemed to be in the right but now I am starting to think that their idea of a rebellion is actually not a very good one. For one thing all they seem to care about are Nords. There are more than just Nords in Skyrim let alone the rest of the empire. Second of all the Stormcloaks aren't very powerful on their own so when and if the Aldmeri Dominion decides to strike back at Skyrim for violating their treaty I really don't think they have what it takes to defend it. Third while the empire may not be in very good shape, they are at least still around. It's true they are more like a vassal state to the Thalmor than anything else, but at some point they may very well have what it takes to defeat them. Oh also Ulfric is a total prick.

Their intrests deffintantly seem to revolve around nords, but can you say any better about an Empire that out laws the practice of an entire religon, and lets the Thalmor march around and commit horrible deeds? And besides most nords are totaly self centered, and many individuals of other races seem to have done well once the understand the nord people. The storm cloaks are strong enough to drive out the empire. The argument could be made that the dragon born did most of the work, but it goes both ways. Also, the nords make up most of the empire garrison, even out side of the empire. Many of them are x leigon. They are good soilders. And skyrim would be an ass ton harder from the Dominion to invade. To get there by land would mean crossing through the Empire, or even hostile Hammerfell. Then Skyrim its self is another story, the land scape is dangorous. Mountianous, and cold. I Skyrim stands a much better chance at deffending her self rather then fighting to deffend the emperial city, which , i remind you has fallen to the Dominion before. And the empire is in worse shape now then ever, thalmor agents rome the county side, hammerfell has liberated its self. " The Empire exists becuase we allow it to" - thalmor wizard. As terrible as it is, its the truth. And uflric is a prick, but if your noting an entire cause as faulty because of one power hungry racist man, then your thinking wrong. Besides i would rather serve under him then the emperor, a self preserving coward.

Uflric by the old laws also has the right to challange the high king. Torag accepted the challange. Its wasn't murder by any means. And in the proccess uflric made a point. Skyrim interinally is weak while the empire puts puppet kings on the throne of the high king.

[ballisticwaffles]

The Empire is ultimatly right in this situation. In their weakened state, it isnt their fault that The Altmer are on a warpath. What they need right now is a few years of peace to work up their strength to fight off the high elves.

What Ulfric is doing is splitting the realm. "United we stand, divided we fall and all that"

And the Emperor is everything but a coward. When you assassinate him at the end of the dark brotherhood quest line, he stands up and takes it like a man.

Do not mistake retreat for cowardice.

Plus My Dovahkiin is an Argonian and that racism thing just dont fly.

[The Shaper]

Their intrests deffintantly seem to revolve around nords, but can you say any better about an Empire that out laws the practice of an entire religon, and lets the Thalmor march around and commit horrible deeds?

The Empire banned Talos worship on the grounds that if they didn't the war would start back up and thousands of people both men and elves would die. Better that people die by breaking new laws rather than as casualties of war.

And besides most nords are totaly self centered, and many individuals of other races seem to have done well once the understand the nord people. The storm cloaks are strong enough to drive out the empire. The argument could be made that the dragon born did most of the work, but it goes both ways.

They understand the Nords racist tendencies, but they complain about it all the time. With good reason. And no they are not strong enough. Have you ever gone a battle without actually killing anyone? They lose man.

Also, the nords make up most of the empire garrison, even out side of the empire. Many of them are x leigon. They are good soilders. And skyrim would be an ass ton harder from the Dominion to invade. To get there by land would mean crossing through the Empire, or even hostile Hammerfell. Then Skyrim its self is another story, the land scape is dangorous. Mountianous, and cold. I Skyrim stands a much better chance at deffending her self rather then fighting to deffend the emperial city, which , i remind you has fallen to the Dominion before. And the empire is in worse shape now then ever, thalmor agents rome the county side, hammerfell has liberated its self. " The Empire exists becuase we allow it to" - thalmor wizard. As terrible as it is, its the truth. And uflric is a prick, but if your noting an entire cause as faulty because of one power hungry racist man, then your thinking wrong. Besides i would rather serve under him then the emperor, a self preserving coward.

Nords make up the Empire garrison because they didn't join the Stormcloaks. The "good" soldiers are with the empire because they realize the faults with the Stormcloaks. Not to mention Skyrim's treacherous landscape could easily work both ways with the Stormcloaks having to traverse it as well. Also as Waffles has already stated, the Emperor is not a coward. He did not plead for life, he did not show any fear when confronted. All he asked was that whoever ordered his death would be killed as well for his treachery.

Uflric by the old laws also has the right to challange the high king. Torag accepted the challange. Its wasn't murder by any means. And in the proccess uflric made a point. Skyrim interinally is weak while the empire puts puppet kings on the throne of the high king.

It wasn't murder, but it wasn't right. Ulfric didn't even attempt to reason with Torygg, and didn't want to make any points. All he wanted was a symbol that he exists. Not that Skyrim is weak, which it is and will remain even if the Stormcloaks take control.

[chaos_Leader]

Most sympathy I had for the Stormcloaks, and for Ulfric especially, I lost when I uncovered this document listing Ulfric as a tool used by the Thalmor specifically to keep the Empire off-balance.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak

Thalmor Dossier on the Stormcloaks leader and Jarl of Windhelm Ulfric Stormcloak.

------------------------------------

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

He's misguided. He was tricked into fighting the empire, who ought to be his ally, by the very enemies he wants to destroy. He, and all the Nords, have a right to be upset with their situation, but fighting another war isn't going to help. It only makes everyone weaker; everyone except the Thalmor, that is.

[OneUnder]

The Stormcloaks are a bunch of racist [and in the case of Argonian and Khajiit, species-ist] morons who have little to no idea as to what it takes to overthrow a large empire. The Imperials are just as incompetent, but need to get their act together and fight against the Thalmor, but cannot because of the ruckus that the Stormcloaks caused.

When it comes down to it, I take the easy route and side with the Khajiit Caravans;

They're just there to make some quick cash and cause no trouble. xD

[Thu'um]

lol i like the Kahjiit too

The Empire is ultimatly right in this situation. In their weakened state, it isnt their fault that The Altmer are on a warpath. What they need right now is a few years of peace to work up their strength to fight off the high elves.

What Ulfric is doing is splitting the realm. "United we stand, divided we fall and all that"

And the Emperor is everything but a coward. When you assassinate him at the end of the dark brotherhood quest line, he stands up and takes it like a man.

Do not mistake retreat for cowardice.

A few years of peace? Its already been 30, and the empire is weaker now then they were before the war. I ment the emperor was a coward for signing the gold and white concordant which banned sacred talos worship so that he could preserve his Power.

Uflric is dividing the realm, he is cutting off the dead limb known as the empire.

Problem with your thinking is you hope the Empire can pull through a seconed war, that IS comming. But it's close to impossible. The Empire has lost hammerfell, which suppedly breeds the most talnted warriors, has been weakned by the skyrim conflict, and lost the intial war. Its a dead empire. Like i said earlyer, the thalmor are letting the empire bleed out, soon enough they will delcare war and finish the job. 1st problem is skyrim's governing system is weak while the empire reigns over it. High king torag was a puppet. The next high king will be no diffrent. So if the empire falls skyrim won't be able to protect her self.

Once you realise the empire doesn't stand a chance you realise the chance the stormcloaks DO have. Racists or not, their home land is easly fortfiable. Mountinous and rugged.

Lets put it this way, there are two men fighting, 1 big and old, the other smaller but fit. The 2nd kicks the shit out of the 1st and as he has him by the balls the 1st says he surrenders and promises to do what the seconed tells him. Through the next three years the the 2nd does nothing but rest up and work out, and constantly abuse the 1st. The 1st then looses an arm in a fight(hammerfell's liberation). Then fractures the other arm in another fight (skyrim incident). Now 2nd is better then ever and the first is in worse shape, guess who is who

TL;DR ?

EMpire has lost once, it is weaker now, will fall again. Skyrim better off deffending her self.

The Empire banned Talos worship on the grounds that if they didn't the war would start back up and thousands of people both men and elves would die. Better that people die by breaking new laws rather than as casualties of war.

The war wouldn't start back up, it was already raging, the treaty was singed right at the burning gates on the emperial city. The Emperor betryaed talos, the very founder of his power, and cept his own throne. Not only did the treaty trample over talos, but it gave the thalmor to good of a positon, there are thalmor garrisons through out the empire, including skyrim. The war will countinue, and the empire won't be able to preserve its self, and if skyrim isn't independent neither will she.

They understand the Nords racist tendencies, but they complain about it all the time. With good reason. And no they are not strong enough. Have you ever gone a battle without actually killing anyone? They lose man.

I mean the ones who actualy know how to get along with nords, examples are that elf in river wood, or the the high elf who sells arms in windhelm. The nords are untrusting intially. But that understandable, especially when they are told they can't worship their own god because some elf in some distant land said so.

And yes i have sat there, They don't loose, both sides just keep fighting and spawning men forever. The battles that have percentages of men left are actualy won, and if you play as an impeiral, if you don't fight while they invade white run they win.

Nords make up the Empire garrison because they didn't join the Stormcloaks. The "good" soldiers are with the empire because they realize the faults with the Stormcloaks. Not to mention Skyrim's treacherous landscape could easily work both ways with the Stormcloaks having to traverse it as well.

It wasn't murder, but it wasn't right. Ulfric didn't even attempt to reason with Torygg, and didn't want to make any points. All he wanted was a symbol that he exists. Not that Skyrim is weak, which it is and will remain even if the Stormcloaks take control.

The first statment isn't verrfiable. It could be said both ways.

The land scape would work against the deffenders, but not signigantly. Nords are use to it, like the confederates were better soilders in the begening of the civil war, from having lived out doors.

Uflric didn't reason with him, but IT was political statment and you can't reject that. IF torygg submitted, then it made him, the current yarl system, and the empire look bad. IF torygg fought him he would loose, still making the the current yarl system and empire look bad. Rather brilliant actualy. And if skyrim is liberated atleast she will have a king who does shit. Uflric is a racist, but he is also brave, smart, and a leader. Things skyrim needs. And right after solitude falls uflric starts his dutties by helping the other yarls reconstruct and fill their garrisons. Skyrim will be more ready then she ever was under the empire.

The Stormcloaks are a bunch of racist [and in the case of Argonian and Khajiit, species-ist] morons who have little to no idea as to what it takes to overthrow a large empire. The Imperials are just as incompetent, but need to get their act together and fight against the Thalmor, but cannot because of the ruckus that the Stormcloaks caused.

" The imperials underestimate the strength of our cause, and it will be their undoing" - uflric upon hearing the imperials dissming his troops as little more then a rebellion. The Empire has had 30 years, they will never have enough time.

[ballisticwaffles]

A few years of peace? Its already been 30, and the empire is weaker now then they were before the war. I ment the emperor was a coward for signing the gold and white concordant which banned sacred talos worship so that he could preserve his Power.

30 Years of peace is not enough time on any accounts to recover from a war. Signing the Concordat to insure peace was a brilliant move. It wasnt cowardice having been on the loosing end of the war. The Altmer were forcing concessions upon the imperials, the Emperor had no choice. If he wanted to be defiant, he would have been killed and replaced with a less capeable tool who would have crippled the imperials beyond repair.

Uflric is dividing the realm, he is cutting off the dead limb known as the empire.

Ulfric is the Infection that is killing the Limb. The Stormcloaks are complicating what could be time better spent recovering more and more and planning more and more.

Problem with your thinking is you hope the Empire can pull through a seconed war, that IS comming. But it's close to impossible. The Empire has lost hammerfell, which suppedly breeds the most talnted warriors, has been weakned by the skyrim conflict, and lost the intial war. Its a dead empire. Like i said earlyer, the thalmor are letting the empire bleed out, soon enough they will delcare war and finish the job. 1st problem is skyrim's governing system is weak while the empire reigns over it. High king torag was a puppet. The next high king will be no diffrent. So if the empire falls skyrim won't be able to protect her self.

If the Empire doesnt Own Skyrim, they will definitly lose, If they do, they have a fighting chance. Skyrims government is weak in the game, because the high king was murdered.

Once you realise the empire doesn't stand a chance you realise the chance the stormcloaks DO have. Racists or not, their home land is easly fortfiable. Mountinous and rugged.

And how does this not at all apply for the imperials? If the Imperials have skyrim they can fall back to it. THe diffrence in this case being that Skyrim would have twice as many men defending it with refugees and the imperials and stormcloaks fighting for her. The stormcloaks have less of a chance than the Empire, simply because they lack the numbers.

snippet about fighting

You analogy is strange and not at all accurate. The better analogy is a body fightning infection. The Altmer are on disease, and the stormcloaks are... nevermind, screw analogies

[chaos_Leader]

That's all well and good Ajc, but you're missing an incredibly important point.

The Thalmor deliberately manipulated events to turn Skyrim against the Empire. Shortly before the game, The Aldmeri Dominion fought Hammerfell to a stalemate, and then withdrew; some might say it was a defeat. They were weakened by the conflict incredibly. If ever there was a time to have united and struck back at the Aldmeri Dominion, it would could have been. But instead, Ulfric Stormcloak tromps around Skyrim full of vainglorious bravado and generally makes a mess of things.

Oh, and the whole Talos thing? The primary purpose of outlawing Talos worship and being able to crack down on it Gestapo-style was primarily an excuse to give the Thalmor free reign to hunt down the remnants of the Blades: one of the few forces with enough inherent skill and talent for subterfuge (and motivation) to give the Thalmor a really hard time (which they were doing for a long while).

It is the Thalmor's intention to keep the Stormcloak conflict going as long as is possible, giving aid both the Empire and Stormcloaks as needed to keep it so. Need proof? In the game's opening, the are Talmor there, why? They were supposed to bust Ulfric Stormcloak out of his captured situation so he could keep on fighting the Empire (see dossier above). Alduin just sort of barged right in and took care of all that messy break-out business for them. While the Stormcloaks and Empire are occupied with one another, the Aldmeri dominion is free to rebuild, and prepare its next strike. Against the squabbling mess of the Stormcloaks vs. Empire, the Aldmeri would easily overwhelm whatever was there, including a Pyrrhic victory by the Stormcloaks over the Imperial Garrison.

There is a third possible option though, one that give the Stormcloaks a victory and unites the Empire. It's one that isn't discussed in the game or official material, but seeing how the current political mashup of Tamriel is and could be by the end of the game, it could work. I can lay out the details if you're interested...

[ballisticwaffles]

I for one wish to know. Unless its forcing the Stalemate in order to kill Alduin. Then i know that one.

And unless im mistaken, i thought the reason to ban talos worship is to destroy all of reality?

[Thu'um]

30 Years of peace is not enough time on any accounts to recover from a war. Signing the Concordat to insure peace was a brilliant move. It wasnt cowardice having been on the loosing end of the war. The Altmer were forcing concessions upon the imperials, the Emperor had no choice. If he wanted to be defiant, he would have been killed and replaced with a less capeable tool who would have crippled the imperials beyond repair.

What they need right now is a few years of peace to work up their strength to fight off the high elves.

My point exactly, if the time they have had isn't enough then then its likly the will never be ready for the next war the thalmor anitiate. Prehaps the concordat momentarly delays the Empire fall, thats just it. Delays. The Empire is just strong enough to keep its self going, If it took the man power and strength they had to use to fight uflric in Skyrim, then surly they lack it in them to figh the thalmor.

Ulfric is the Infection that is killing the Limb. The Stormcloaks are complicating what could be time better spent recovering more and more and planning more and more.

Ulfric sees the empire and knows its dieing, He is the limb, trying to sever him self so that skyrim will not fall with the already dead empire. And like i said before, they have had 30 years, time is running out. And how could the empire possibly pull out a victory, they couldn't before. They are weaker now. what do they have going for them?

You analogy is strange and not at all accurate.

strange. yes. accurate. yes

If the Empire doesn't own Skyrim, they will definitly lose, If they do, they stand a fighting chance they will definitly loose. Skyrims government is weak in the game, because the high king was murdered isn't really a king, but a weak and powerless puppet of the empire. Just a figure head really

fix'd

And how does this not at all apply for the imperials? If the Imperials have skyrim they can fall back to it. THe diffrence in this case being that Skyrim would have twice as many men defending it with refugees and the imperials and stormcloaks fighting for her. The stormcloaks have less of a chance than the Empire, simply because they lack the numbers.

Becuase the nord soilder will take heavy losses while fighting to deffend the imperial land, Its a loosing battle try to hold thoase lands, besides skyrim won't be ready or prooperly garrisoned for the event, it will take months to prepare the deffenses, she would be as vunurable as a lamb. An independent skyrim would be ever vigilent, having managed its own deffences. Besides the imperials make bad jugement calls for leaders, i mean why General Tulius? He had never even been to skyrim, that lady should have been in chare since she was a nord and new the area . And remeber what i said, the imperial garrison is derived mostly off nords, if skyrim was free she would have a higher soilder per acre then the empire, and infact probably would have more soilders, Also they are likly to stand in good diplomancy with hammerfel, another x empire nation. Hammer fell + skyrim is potent.

[Thu'um]

That's all well and good Ajc, but you're missing an incredibly important point.

The Thalmor deliberately manipulated events to turn Skyrim against the Empire. Shortly before the game, The Aldmeri Dominion fought Hammerfell to a stalemate, and then withdrew; some might say it was a defeat. They were weakened by the conflict incredibly. If ever there was a time to have united and struck back at the Aldmeri Dominion, it would could have been. But instead, Ulfric Stormcloak tromps around Skyrim full of vainglorious bravado and generally makes a mess of things.

Oh, and the whole Talos thing? The primary purpose of outlawing Talos worship and being able to crack down on it Gestapo-style was primarily an excuse to give the Thalmor free reign to hunt down the remnants of the Blades: one of the few forces with enough inherent skill and talent for subterfuge (and motivation) to give the Thalmor a really hard time (which they were doing for a long while).

It is the Thalmor's intention to keep the Stormcloak conflict going as long as is possible, giving aid both the Empire and Stormcloaks as needed to keep it so. Need proof? In the game's opening, the are Talmor there, why? They were supposed to bust Ulfric Stormcloak out of his captured situation so he could keep on fighting the Empire (see dossier above). Alduin just sort of barged right in and took care of all that messy break-out business for them. While the Stormcloaks and Empire are occupied with one another, the Aldmeri dominion is free to rebuild, and prepare its next strike. Against the squabbling mess of the Stormcloaks vs. Empire, the Aldmeri would easily overwhelm whatever was there, including a Pyrrhic victory by the Stormcloaks over the Imperial Garrison.

There is a third possible option though, one that give the Stormcloaks a victory and unites the Empire. It's one that isn't discussed in the game or official material, but seeing how the current political mashup of Tamriel is and could be by the end of the game, it could work. I can lay out the details if you're interested...

i am aware its in the intrest of the thalmor, BUT a stormcloak victory is to be avoided if i remember the documents correctly. Meaning the Stormcloaks could be equaly potent.

the talos thing is more then just the blades, it allows the establishment of foot holds garrisoned by the thalmor troops to be instituted through out the empire, The elves do not belive in Tiber septim's becomign a god becuase the belive man is not worthy of god hood, and their agents travely freely through out skyrim to do what ever suits them, even hunt x-blades.

As for the ending you forsee i am very intrested.

edit: darn, double post forgive me talo- er, mods

[chaos_Leader]

i am aware its in the intrest of the thalmor, BUT a stormcloak victory is to be avoided if i remember the documents correctly. Meaning the Stormcloaks could be equaly potent.

And here below might be why...

By popular request, the analysis and speculation of TES V: Skyrim post endgame

Assuming most/all of the faction quests in Skyrim reach their conclusions (especially the Dark Bros), and the main quest is complete, with a Stormcloak victory. (The Dragonborn doesn't have to be the one who perpetrates all the events, just so long as the events of the quests occur.)

The Empire at this point would be a mess: little more than the province of Cyrodiil. The then reigning emperor Titus Mede II would be dead, and the person who would've maneuvered into position (Amaund Motierre) is also likely killed (as that was Mede's last request). As far as I can tell, there were no heirs for Titus Mede II.

Consider also that the Septim Dynasty, cut short in the Oblivion Crisis, was descendant from a long line of Dragonborn, all the way back to Tiber Septim, aka: Talos. This Talos/Tiber Septim guy was supposed to have gone through a similar ceremony thing with the Graybeards as the Player does in the game, becoming Ysmir and such. Now, the conclusion of Skyrim's main quest would feature the player Dragonborn in a position of extreme prominence, having single-handedly stopped Alduin and generally been a big damn hero. Some clever folks in-universe could easily make the connection of "Hey, a true Dragonborn can claim the Imperial throne once again!"

So of course, the next logical step for the heroc celebrity of a Dragonborn would be to claim the Imperial throne. Naturally, this could occur whether or not the Stormcloaks won, but it seems to work this way just a little better. With whatever is left of the old Empire pretty much thrown back on its heels, broken down to little more than Cyrodiil itself, it would be in absolute dire need of strong, bold new leadership, or else crumble away. Big Man Ulfric may be all keen on his independence thing, but if he's got even a tenth of a tactical brain left where his ego had swollen, he'd know he'd need allies to take on the Aldmeri. Thus: Skyrim, Hammerfell, Argonia, Cyrodiil, High Rock if they can get their act together, and whatever smithereens are left of Morrowind (but not Elsweyr or Valenwood, since they are still under Aldmeri control at this point) would unite under their Talos-like Dragonborn Hero Emperor, reforming a "new" Empire out of the broken shambles of the old.

Obviously this is a bit of a stretch, and could very easily be the plot basis for an entire game or book or book series (I can already think of half a dozen conflicting power plays happening), but that's kind of how I see the post-Skyrim world of Tamriel playing out.

the talos thing is more then just the blades, it allows the establishment of foot holds garrisoned by the thalmor troops to be instituted through out the empire, The elves do not belive in Tiber septim's becomign a god becuase the belive man is not worthy of god hood, and their agents travely freely through out skyrim to do what ever suits them, even hunt x-blades.

That is what they believe, and they're not too keen on people disagreeing with them, but they're a little more clever and thoughtful than that. They can have garrisons all over the empire without the Talos ban, they can have the Talos ban without the Gestapo hyper-punishment bonanza in the game, but they chose to go through and have the Gestapo thing. The Thalmor's primary concern, even above their theology, is to maintain control and spread their influence. This means rooting out and stamping down any enemies, especially the subtle insidious ones like spies; Blades. The Talos Ban provides them the perfect on-paper "legitimate" reason to go after the Blades, or anyone who might be an opposition sympathizer regardless of theological belief. the fact that it lnes up with their beliefs and helps makes them feel superior is a nice bonus, and elegantly convenient, in an elf-like fashion.

[Thu'um]

Most of that makes sense, weather or not the populace knows about alduin is unknown, many infact think he is actualy akintosh.

however, You seem to think the primary purpose of talos ban was to hunt the blades, which it was not. It was to put a leash on the empire. Notice how every imperial yarl has three thalmor living with him/her. Hunt the blades is just one benefit the talos ban brings.

[OneUnder]

however, You seem to think the primary purpose of talos ban was to hunt the blades, which it was not. It was to put a leash on the empire. Notice how every imperial yarl has three thalmor living with him/her. Hunt the blades is just one benefit the talos ban brings.

This I have to disagree with, though I am far too lazy to read through the massive walls of text that preceed it. The Thalmor already have control over the empire; why would they need to institute a Talos ban to put thalmor with people that are in positions of power when they could more or less do whatever they like? The Blades explanation makes sense; only a well-organized and elite force made up of many could ever hope to stand a chance against the Thalmor; the Imperials need time to restructure, the stormcloaks are preventing the imperials from restructuring, and the whole thing is a mess.

[Thu'um]

This I have to disagree with, though I am far too lazy to read through the massive walls of text that preceed it. The Thalmor already have control over the empire; why would they need to institute a Talos ban to put thalmor with people that are in positions of power when they could more or less do whatever they like? The Blades explanation makes sense; only a well-organized and elite force made up of many could ever hope to stand a chance against the Thalmor; the Imperials need time to restructure, the stormcloaks are preventing the imperials from restructuring, and the whole thing is a mess.

The thalmor don't have direct control, they can't dictate the empire. But in the treaty the elves are granted permision to route out talos worship. THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE CONTROL. They conduct their evil agenda under the talos ban. With out it they wouldn't have justifiable reason to have thalmor watch every jarl, or hunt blades. But the Imperials arn't more organized the the storm cloaks, their leaderships structers mirror each other. The only diffrence is the jarl and high king system whitch is close the emperor govener deal....And like i said, the imperials don't have much time left. They have had thirty years, and they are even weaker now then they were at the end of the great war. They won't be able to recover.

[The Shaper]

The thalmor don't have direct control, they can't dictate the empire. But in the treaty the elves are granted permision to route out talos worship. THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE CONTROL. They conduct their evil agenda under the talos ban. With out it they wouldn't have justifiable reason to have thalmor watch every jarl, or hunt blades. But the Imperials arn't more organized the the storm cloaks, their leaderships structers mirror each other. The only diffrence is the jarl and high king system whitch is close the emperor govener deal....And like i said, the imperials don't have much time left. They have had thirty years, and they are even weaker now then they were at the end of the great war. They won't be able to recover.

Yes they do. The banning of Talos was one of the many laws accepted during the signing of the White-Gold Concordat. It is not what gives them full control, it gives them a ready reason to arrest any nobles suspected of it, yes, but it was mainly so they could take on the Blades without having to worry about running into trouble with their own laws. And yes, actually, the Imperials still have time left, plenty of it. The only thing keeping them from recovering AND what is making them "weaker than they were before" are the Stormcloaks, which could never defeat the Aldmeri Dominion on their own, especially with Ulfric Stormcloak in charge.

[chaos_Leader]

Most of that makes sense, weather or not the populace knows about alduin is unknown, many infact think he is actualy akintosh.

Do some reading:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Alduin_is_Real

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Alduin/Akatosh_Dichotomy

Most of the populace (before the Skyrim game) believed Alduin to be false: a scary bedtime story about the end of time. They Know Akatosh to be real, since Martin Septim did his whole heroric sacrifice thing to bring on the Akatosh Avatar to beat Dagon to the punch at the end of the Oblivion Crisis.

Some of the details might be a might bit fuzzy, but by the end of the Skyrim game, there is plenty of understanding that the Dragonborn was the one behind Alduin's defeat, and that he's the big damn hero they should all be looking up to, which they do. The Bards even start singing a new song in-game in honor of this event.

however, You seem to think the primary purpose of talos ban was to hunt the blades, which it was not. It was to put a leash on the empire. Notice how every imperial yarl has three thalmor living with him/her. Hunt the blades is just one benefit the talos ban brings.

You didn't read the whole thing. I said the main purpose was to hunt Blades and any other likely dissenters throughout the Empire. The Blades may be/have been the most threatening undermining force set against the Thalmor, but the Talos ban allows them to pluck out anyone that might be in opposition, regardless of what their actual theological position is, and not just Blades. This is one of the main reasons the Dark Brotherhood is all but wiped-out from Tamriel at the start of the game: the Thalmor have been systematically hunting them down, using the Talos ban as their excuse (I can only imagine how staggeringly huge the demand for Dark Bros assassins to take out Thalmor would have been following the great war). That is what mainly secures Thalmor influence in the Empire: the fact that they can go in and snuff out any hidden cells of resistance before they gain momentum, and that the Legion can't lift a finger to stop them without breaking the terms of the treaty and restarting the whole war mess all over again.

[Thu'um]

And yes, actually, the Imperials still have time left, plenty of it. The only thing keeping them from recovering AND what is making them "weaker than they were before" are the Stormcloaks, which could never defeat the Aldmeri Dominion on their own, especially with Ulfric Stormcloak in charge.

How can you say they have time left? The thalmor are on their own agenda. A final blow many not be far off. The storm cloacks aren't even responsible for half of the empire's weakness, Hammerfell left too you know, We don't even know if morrowind is still part of the empire, and even if its been plagued by disasters and doesn't have any strength to lend. And why can't the storm cloaks win? Theoretically if they beat the empire that means either their troops were better or ulfric was a better leader then tullious, which i belive he was. OR even both.

[The Shaper]

How can you say they have time left? The thalmor are on their own agenda. A final blow many not be far off.

Because they do? The Aldermi Dominion isn't about to start up the war again with no rhyme or reason. They WANT the Stormcloak rebellion around to weaken the empire further, once that has happened THEN a final blow is realistically close. However as long as the rebellion is around, whether or not Ulfric wins they have no intention of invading the empire.

The storm cloacks aren't even responsible for half of the empire's weakness, Hammerfell left too you know, We don't even know if morrowind is still part of the empire, and even if its been plagued by disasters and doesn't have any strength to lend.

Not half, no, but if you send a ton of good fighting men into one spot, that's a ton of good men you can't use anywhere else. Not retaking territory, and not defending a city against the Altmer.

And why can't the storm cloaks win? Theoretically if they beat the empire that means either their troops were better or ulfric was a better leader then tullious, which i belive he was. OR even both.

"Theoretically" doesn't have a place here since Dovahkiin did all the work and Ulfric is far from a better leader than Tullius. Not to mention the Stormcloak soldiers are a bunch of Nords with big weapons who focus on raw power more than tactics and planning. Even if they beat the empire, the Altmer deploy a lot more thinking into a battle, as well as considerable amounts more magic. That is why they can't win. The Empire even with Skyrim couldn't defeat them before, Skyrim alone has no chance at all.

[Thu'um]

That is why they can't win. The Empire even with Skyrim couldn't defeat them before, Skyrim alone has no chance at all.

THE EMPIRE WITH MORROWIND, HAMERFELL, AND SKYRIM couldn't defeat them. Skyrim If given its independence or the empire atleast realizing its stratgic importance, would be incredibly hard to invade. probably the most deffendable reigon on skyrim

[chaos_Leader]

THE EMPIRE WITH MORROWIND, HAMERFELL, AND SKYRIM couldn't defeat them. Skyrim If given its independence or the empire atleast realizing its stratgic importance, would be incredibly hard to invade. probably the most deffendable reigon on skyrim

...

Nothing in this made sense. Back up, and try to make your points again so we can understand what exactly you're trying to say. I've got a vague idea what it might be, but it's all jumbled up.

[Thu'um]

...

Nothing in this made sense. Back up, and try to make your points again so we can understand what exactly you're trying to say. I've got a vague idea what it might be, but it's all jumbled up.

Look, during the great war the empire consisted of Cyrodil, Hammerfell, Skyrim, And morrowind. It lost with all of these places united. Now it does not own hammerfell, it may or may not own morrowind, but it wouldn't matter since it's a wreak now. and they may or may not own skyrim and have lost troops over it.

Skyrim is one of the most deffendable reigons of tammeriel, If fortified and garrisoned properly it stands an excelent chance holding off thalmor invasions, but that won't occur under the empire. if storm cloaks took over they would increase the strength of the yarl and high king system, and holds and skyrim would become more deppendent on providing their own deffence rather then not having their own forces to insure national protection.

[The Shaper]

Skyrim is one of the most deffendable reigons of tammeriel, If fortified and garrisoned properly it stands an excelent chance holding off thalmor invasions, but that won't occur under the empire. if storm cloaks took over they would increase the strength of the yarl and high king system, and holds and skyrim would become more deppendent on providing their own deffence rather then not having their own forces to insure national protection.

Okay so sure Skyrim is a defensible region, the Stormcloaks have a good defensive system........ and not much else. If the Aldermi Dominion invaded Skyrim there would be a standstill due to the Stormcloaks staunch defense of the region so you say. Although if it does come to a standstill, the Dominion could probably find an easy way of outlasting Skyrim until they are too weak to fight.

Also if you actually play the game, notice how just because there are mountains everywhere doesn't make the terrain impeding and hard to traverse. So no, it's not as easy to defend as you keep saying it is.