Rusakov

Israel Lobbyist suggests False Flag attack to start war with Iran

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Rusakov

Sick.

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unoservix

this is the part where i sincerely question why the US needs to "stand with Israel" no matter what stupid suicidal bullshit they do

as international alliances go, ours with Israel is a total ripoff

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Xortberg

"Using covert means against the Iranians"

GEE THIS RECORDED SPEECH OF HOW WE'RE GOING TO FUCK WITH THE IRANIANS SURE IS COVERT OH YEAH BOY. THEY'LL NEVER KNOW WHAT HIT 'EM.

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TCPeppyTc

Id hate to see a war with Iran. That possibly could start WW3.

At the same time Iran Cannot have a nuclear weapon. If they do, there will be arms race.

The Iranian fundamentalists are loose cannons. They might bomb israel or somewhere else, in hopes that the " Last Imam" will surface and usher in world peace.

Obama hasnt gotten anything out of Iran, and those Mullahs now see how weak and pliable Obama is. That is one of the main reasons I am voting Romney/Ryan.

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unoservix

ask Qaddafi and bin Laden how "weak and pliable" Obama is

oh wait you can't they're dead

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Thu'um

Obama has done alright with foregin policy, nothing he really shouldn't have done, nothing fantastic. Respect points for listening to military advice on afighanistan though.

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Faisul

Literally suggesting to start disappearing submarines and stuff. Put on Youtube. Real subtle. Remind me again why starting a war with Iran would be desireable. Oh gee an Israel lobbyist well whoop-de-doo no wonder he rambles on about the foreign policy equivalent of plunging headfirst into a bucket of manure, the Israelis have basically perfected the art.

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sroberson

I think its silly talking about how supposedly weak and pliable Obama is. In a world were we are trying to cooperate and work together, I imagine we need LESS strong armed and intolerant tactics by leaders. That right there is what spreads distrust and hatred. Just check out how angry we get about leaders of other countries trying to push other countries around. The damn "weak Obama" rhetoric needs to stop, its just poison from the Republican party trying to paint him as incompetent and not worthy.

As for Israel. I have over time become more and more disillusioned about them as they try more and more to provoke the Middle East but try and right the protection coattails of the U.S. I was only further disturbed to finally understand that Israel was really only begotten by terroristic means. Guess being raised in Catholic schools they liked to not discuss that fact. Gee, we really should protect them...from...terrorists ....right?...uhh....

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Fana McCloud

I was only further disturbed to finally understand that Israel was really only begotten by terroristic means. Guess being raised in Catholic schools they liked to not discuss that fact. Gee, we really should protect them...from...terrorists ....right?...uhh....

Yeah, most people don't understand that the Arab communities were pushed out in clashes with Jews that swarmed to the country in a Zionistic fervor - I'd imagine some of the feelings involved were comparable to how Americans feel about Hispanics entering the country illegally. It became a huge civil war of Jews versus Arabs.

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Xortberg

Zuko_cries.png

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Vy'drach

I'll jump on this derail bandwagon before it gets rerailed.

comeatmebropredator.jpg

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DZComposer

Stop the memes now or I lock the thread.

Anyway, let's talk about the elephant in the room for a minute.

Is Iran REALLY a threat to the US? Those who actually know about what is happening there say Iran is at least 5 years, maybe even a decade from having the ability to enrich uranium enough to make nukes. Little is know about whether or not they actually intend to do so. There are things that point either way. The Mullahs have come out and said that nukes are against Islam, for instance, yet Iran is most definitely aware that the US doesn't fuck with dictators that have nukes, and Iranian officials have said things that can be taken as agreeing with that.

The whole reason the west is pissed at Iran is because of Israel, but Iran has their own reason to hate the west, which I will get to in a bit.

The best foreign policy move concerning the Middle East that can be made is to LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE. Most of the region's problems can be traced back the the end of WWI when the Ottoman Empire collapsed and the Europeans divided-up the Middle East.

The West are not the masters of peace. If you read history, you will find that war and genocide have followed Western activities around the world for centuries, from the Americas in the 1500s to Africa today. This is why so much of the world hates the West. Because the West was all "Yo, we want your land and your gold. We also want you to believe in our religion. What? You don't want to do that? Too bad. We're the West. We know what is best for everyone. If you disagree, YOU CAN DIE!" for centuries. People don't forget that shit.

It is also a fallacy to think that the West is a continuing force for Democracy. Iran's own history bears this out: In 1951, Iranians get a new prime minister and a parliament that decides, "Fuck it, this oil is ours! BP can GTFO!" (Iran was somewhat similar to the UK in governmental structure at the time). They nationalized the oil industry. Of course, the UK and the US were pissed. So what did we do? Let's get MI6 and the CIA to back some crazy guy named Zahedi to start a coup! Zahedi became Prime Minister as a result, and he gave more power to the Shah, who pretty much acted as a Western puppet. He also ruled Iran as a tyrant. A crazy cleric named Khomeini got a bunch of radicals together, and using the Shah's tyranny as propaganda, led a revolution that ousted the Shah. Now the Iranians did not forget how their country became a tyranny. They stormed the US embassy and took everyone hostage and held them for three fucking years.

Though, the new government had a problem: Many of Iran's military weapons were US-made. Of course, the US wasn't interested in selling them parts anymore. At least until a guy named Ronald Reagan ran for president. His campaign cut a deal with the Iranians: Hold the hostages to make Carter look bad, and when Reagan gets in, release them. As a result, Reagan will ensure that the new government can buy parts and weapons again. As Reagan was taking the oath of office, the Iranians released the hostages. Reagan then sold them the weapons, and used the money to fund another campaign, led by the Contras, to overthrow a revolutionary government in Nicaragua that had itself ousted a US puppet. It is worth noting that this deal was illegal. Big time. The US had an embargo against Iran, which Reagan violated. This became known as "Iran-Contra" and marred the Reagan administration. There were two investigations, one congressional (Senate was firmly Republican) and one Executive, investigators in the latter being chosen by Reagan. Neither could prove Reagan himself was involved, but it sure as hell stank. Some lower-level officials too the fall for it.

Then there is the history of Israel, which in a nutshell, after WWII, the Brits set a boundary between this new country, Israel, and the existing country, Palestine, which would lose a great amount of territory in this deal. Neither side was completely happy with it, so they went to war. Israel had the backing of the west, and won. As spoils, they took the whole damn thing. Before long, they began oppressing the Palestinians, who began fighting back with attacks on Israeli civilians. The oppression continued, with the attacks being used as an excuse to continue it. The West stood silent on the whole affair, practically pretending that the oppression did not exist. This doesn't excuse everything the Palestinians did, but given the history, you can't solely point the blame at them.

So, Western politicians love to say "That hate us because of our freedom," yet the West overthrows governments, even democratic ones, that look after their own people instead of Western interests, and turns a blind-eye to Israeli war crimes. Hmm, why do they hate us? Because we don't make our women wear veils or because we keep them constantly under tyranny... Hmmm I wonder...

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Redeemer

Apologies, I didn't know people would respond to my agreeing with Ajc with memes. :/ I do sincerely think that there is a severe case of dishonour here, I'm ashamed for this guy, frankly.

"Using covert means against the Iranians"

GEE THIS RECORDED SPEECH OF HOW WE'RE GOING TO FUCK WITH THE IRANIANS SURE IS COVERT OH YEAH BOY. THEY'LL NEVER KNOW WHAT HIT 'EM.

Basically my thoughts on this. Some people just dig their own grave doing what they think is daring or brave. And this guy... look at him, he's shitting bricks as he's talking, knowing that what he's saying is going to come back and bite him on the ass. He looks so nervous, hell I feel nervous for him.

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Harlow

Well, Iran does have this horrible record on human rights and has threathened Israel constantly, but Israel doesn't really need to go and stir crap.

If Iran would really want to engage in war, they would've done so time ago.

And yes, I agree Palestine was stolen and was strategically placed in order to keep an eye on the middle east. But was it unfair? I don't think so. Palestine was always and I think it will always be

Palestina%203.jpgpalestine_1.jpgpalestine4.jpg

Note: No bombing, no war, no nothing on these pictures.

Meanwhile, look what the Jewish did:

Israel%205.jpgIsrael%202.jpgIsrael%203.jpg

Plus:

-Israel's the country with most museums and libraries per cápita

-One of the few technology producing countries (pioneers on cellphone and medical technology)

-Has fair relationships with many muslim countries (Turkey, Kuwait, UAE) and are open minded about religions themselves

But right now, it became popular to "hate" Israel because of the "war crimes". If that's the main reason, why not hate Japan too (~1mill. deaths on WWII) Many blame Israel on the destruction of schools and kindergardens, but little did they know that those are the favorite place for the Hamas to hide their weaponry. Little did they know that by hearing the Israelis about the evacuation about their invasion, they could've prevented many deaths. Little did they know that Iran, by fueling the Hamas, is adding fuel to the fire about the same issue everyone doesn't like.

By this and other reasons, is natural that any country would be driven to hostility.

They just need to keep as wary as they always have been. Everyone knows that if israel attacked, they'll recieve help. They'll lose more if they "defend" itselves right now.

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unoservix

the reason Palestine is that way is that Israel blockades and strangles them so they can rise no further

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sroberson

The Mullahs have come out and said that nukes are against Islam, for instance, yet Iran is most definitely aware that the US doesn't fuck with dictators that have nukes, and Iranian officials have said things that can be taken as agreeing with that.

My cynical two cents on this part..but Islam is supposedly also about tolerance and peace, not seeing much of either right now. I know Christian religions (which I don't really identify with) and western society are not immune to this problem but frankly I feel like if they really wanted to present themselves as the tolerant and peace loving religion that they say that they are, then they would make it a very strong point to call out the people who are intolerant and incite unrest and furthermore label them something other than Islam. Just my thoughts, that are probably really narrow at the given moment.

Harlow: While it may be all well and good that Israel enjoys such a high level of success in economy and culture compared to the surrounding areas, that should not be confused with a reason for them to continue nor does it make them right. Romney argued that just recently and it almost made me sick because of the implications his reasoning has on possible American policy. You are right on many of the topics you bought up, I just felt the need to point that out. (Doesn't Israel enjoy a high amount of foreign aid from the United States anyways?)

Wait...is this a Counter Point discussion?

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Faisul

Yeah, I think you're missing a big chunk of history in that comparison, Harlow. Israeli settler activity (forcing Palestinians out of an area they have de jure rights to live on) to aggressively plant Israeli families has and will continue to be one of the reasons Palestinians live in relative destitution compared to the Israelis. There is also an ongoing policy of strict physical (walls, checkpoints, Israeli-only roads, list goes on) and virtual (racism, discrimination, etc.) segregation forcing Palestinians out of virtually all of the Western goodies Israel currently enjoys - employment, transportation, access to goods from the West, you name it. And yeah Israel keeps bombing the other guys and plowing down their houses with bulldozers. While Hamas and Hezbollah (Palestinian terror/freedom fighter organisations, basically) are some pretty naughty boys they don't hold a stick up to what the Israelis have been doing for decades now.

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Fana McCloud

Everyone has pretty much hit the points I wanted to make in response to Harlow, but I'll also add: so what if Israelis are more built up and westernized? Implying that living in mudbrick houses is undesirable if the people living there are fine with it is pretty provincial and ethnocentric right from the get go, on top of how it ignores that the Israelis never ALLOW them to progress any further.

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Harlow

I'm not saying the Palestinians don't deserve the land they live just because they aren't a superadvanced country.

They could locate the Jews in the middle of Europe or in South America, for all they'd care, and it could've been the same history with other characters.

I believe in independence for both Israel and the current Palestinian territories; each make their land the hole they want to live in. (BTW, What's your status regarding Jerusalem? Who should retain soverignity?)

I meant that, at least they try to make Israel an actual nice and liveable place instead of just a drone state with it's mind solely on war. And, with a 25% muslim pop. and Arab as a 2nd language, there isn't a place one can call xenophobia.

Also, maybe the Hamas aren't only anti-israel and anti-western. Being a radical Muslim party, they even hate the freedom of religion, of sexuality and other social aspects that are commonly lived in the latter.

So yes, Iran and Palestine have constantly attacked Israel to the point that apprehensions become an option, and yes, Israel is becoming way too intense for a solution almost to the point of their desire of it becoming fascistic

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russiandog38

Actually it wasent the Jews who kicked the Palestinians out, it was the british. And Iran has made open threats against Isreal, so if I were them I would want to strike first to. Also, Iran is closer to getting a nuke then most people think http://abcnews.go.com/International/iran-nukes-spring-warns-netanyahu/story?id=17340927 and if our presidant even had half a brain, he would support Israel on this one.

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sroberson

Actually it wasent the Jews who kicked the Palestinians out, it was the british. And Iran has made open threats against Isreal, so if I were them I would want to strike first to. Also, Iran is closer to getting a nuke then most people think http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=17340927 and if our presidant even had half a brain, he would support Israel on this one.

Admittedly, I am concerned about Iran possessing nuclear capacities due to the instability and constant c*** measuring contests in the 1000 mile vicinity - but really I don't think there is any real hard evidence that Iran is really that close to enriching enough uranium to build a nuke. Would they get there eventually without intervention (or American and Israeli software engineers developing viruses)? Sure. I would be perfectly fine with them studying nuclear technology if they were at least transparent about it, but they aren't...so that's my concern.

Also...I think bashing the president of the United States is rather off the rails for this discussion as its at least two degrees of separation away if not more. If we must throw around insults towards global leaders, lets please at least back it up with proof or ability to be fact checked as to why they may or may not be competent.

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unoservix

i still have not been supplied with reasons why we have to stick our necks out for Israel on every stupid bullshit suicidal thing they do.

if Iran is such a threat to Israel, then fine, let Israel deal with it. they're the one being threatened. after all, we pour billions of dollars into their military and built them the most powerful armed force in the Middle East, the one with enough nuclear weapons to turn Iran into a scorched wasteland if they really wanted, so if they still can't defend themselves then we probably can't help them anyways. so don't throw the "prevent another Holocaust" thing at me; we built them that powerful military and they can keep it and take care of their own shit.

besides which, what have they ever done for us? they spy on us as though we were an enemy. they're not some kind of important trading partner. we have no bases there. they never pitch in for our wars. they're as much of a theocratic antidemocratic hellhole as the countries we routinely rail against. our commonly expressed official goal in the Middle East is to "spread democracy" and yet they actively impede our efforts there to do so. our association with them makes us a target for crazy extremists. they do crazy evil shit that diminishes our moral authority in the world, because we always have to cover for them like China has to cover for North Korea. they don't even have some geopolitical role vis-a-vis some other superpower anymore, nor would we have to worry about a flood of refugees over our borders, like China does with North Korea.

so why exactly should American blood have to be shed and American money spent and the American economy wrecked fighting a war on behalf of Israel? let them fight their own goddamned war.

or, if they still can't take care of themselves after decades of American coddling, then obviously all that coddling is wasted and we should stop doing it. which leads me back to the original point: let them fight their own goddamned war.

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Faisul

Uno, I pretty much wholeheartedly agree. I think one of the reasons for the continual and somewhat bizarre US support for Israel is due to a number of factors. I don't have sources for any of this and it's just an idea I have so don't quote me on it and feel free to tear each point apart, but here you go;

1. Many people in important places in US administrations since the founding of Israel are either baby boomers or old enough to remember the early days of Israel and the role of the Western powers in founding it in some capacity. They don't want to admit their pet project went pear shaped and thus don't want to make moves towards tearing away from Israel. The same goes for the UK and the other former great powers.

2. Many in the US are Jewish, and a very few hold quite important purse strings. Do not take this as me saying 'ach, greedy jews' or suggesting all Jews support Israel - I'm not an anti-semite or suggesting of some zionist conspiracy, but I do think a chunk of the lobbying wing is made up of guys trying their hardest to keep the US close to their promised land and who will cry bloody murder (and most importantly, withdraw campaign funding) if any lawmaker suggests policies trying to move the US away from their relationship with Israel. Additionally a number of these people either have dual citizenships or have families living in Israel and will understandeably not support anything that they see would threaten themselves or their families, no matter how flimsy the justification.

3a. The Middle East is terrifying to quite a few people, not least in the administration. Either they're playing off the fears from 9/11 or they genuinely are afraid, in any case they're backing Israel as the asshole they know contra the other assholes in the Middle East, regardless of whether they're really assholes or not. Because of this it could be a disastrous political move to endorse the Palestinians openly as political opponents can be pretty quick to pull out the 'you support TERRORISM!!!' or 'YOU HATE JEWS!!!' dialectic if you do, for example.

3b. Israel is widely seen as 'the western power' in the Middle East, a sort of representation of Civilization in what has historically been seen as a complete bongo bongo land. Yes, I know this is completely wrong and horrible, yes I know this view is limited to some Americans and some Europeans, the problem is, those cranky old fossils hold power, and to those who don't, big chunks of their constituency believes in this kind of thing. To them, abandoning Israel is to abandon all hopes of "civilizing" the image they hold in their heads of Arabs as "cloth-headed savages."

4. Due to a long history of imperialist douchebaggery by the West and continual sabre-rattling from Israel, many Middle Eastern countries have been sabre-rattling on their own. Let's not forget that as soon as Israel became a thing, pretty much every Arab neighbour country declared war on them - Egypt and Iraq especially, as well as those pesky Palestinians who didn't feel like moving their shit - and they were completely smashed in that war. As a result, anti-Israel (and anti-semite) hate runs pretty deep in a lot of the Middle East and Israel and its friends are fucking terrified of what would happen if the US stopped supporting Israel, whether or not that threat is a realistic one. Not that Israel-supporters openly talking on Youtube about acts of war against Iran is helping any, and neither is the continual diplomatic smack talk and dick-waving coming from the Israeli government to its muslim neighbours, prompting some smack talk and dick-waving of their own.

Like it or not, I think the US is too deeply entrenched in Israeli interests to be able to effectively pull out without a huge backlash both at home and abroad. I do think the administration is aware that Israel is doing some crazy shit they shouldn't support, but they aren't talking about it because that could mean the administration would become very unpopular. Hopefully as older generations lose their vice-like grip on power both in the US, Europe and Israel and new blood (and new ideas) fill the gaps, reconciliation can be taken more seriously, or a withdrawal of support to Israel can take place without spiralling into a slap fight.

(BTW, What's your status regarding Jerusalem? Who should retain soverignity?)

Ideally? No one. Jerusalem has been shared between the major religions at some point in the past, albeit shakily, and discounting the horrible shit like the Crusades. While it's pretty much the capital of Israel right now it has a large, multi-faith population and is regarded as the holiest place on Earth to billions of various religious inclinations. While it will never cease to be fought over in some capacity, cementing it as neutral ground and giving each faith an officially recognized presence there (especially in the Old City) might defuse some of the tensions surrounding that place.

Jokingly? Bulldoze it, irradiate it, put down a mine field and call it a day

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