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Redeemer

Media and influence on young people

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Redeemer

Continued from here:

 

Sorry Dras, I tried to split the topic but ran the risk of accidentally merging the whole brony topic with this one.

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Vy'drach

In regards to Xort and Dras's argument, since I couldn't pick an image:

 

jokerpopcorn.gif

 

Carrottoppopcorn.gif

 

popcorn.png

 

 

Also,

 

Haha, wow. Do you need a hankerchief? Maybe a binkie? Didn't realize you would have an emotional meltdown because I don't like a television show. But hey, maybe this time you could take a deep breath and try to actually read what I'm saying before hyperventilating and crying tears of brony rage all over the internet.

 


Come now, Dras, it doesn't take an English professor to see that this is not the case with Xort.

 

 
You are becoming Sabre. That's the only logical explanation. You have completely overlooked not only my attempts at being polite in my first two posts and my (failed) attempts at being polite in the third, but also my commitment to neutrality towards the argument in general. You seem to be under the COMPLETELY incorrect assumption that I'm trying to claim that a show that hasn't even come out can do no wrong. I'm not.
 
 
Haha, I remember when Sabre did just that to me when we were "discussing" Battlefield 3 vs. Call of Duty. I miss that lovable oaf.
 
And I'm not taking a side on the actual arguement topic, but when it comes to who's doing what, I'm with Xort. He's not jumping to defend the show and saying it can't fail, no way, no how. He's saying that, before condemning the show, to actually wait until there actually IS a show. If I were to of made judgements of FiM based on the stock promo picture of all the ponies piled onto each other that they show at the end of the intro, or even on the intro itself, I'd of assumed the show would of been nothing but a bunch of giggling ponies that go around hugging things who's biggest problem is not having enough things to hug/not enough hugs. Instead, we have a show where the characters have legitimate nervous breakdowns and develop real mental conditions and have to face the likes of Super Troll Discord and a being who has no qualms about trapping someone in a cavern with no food or water while she strings her fiance along to gain power so she can feed the entire kingdom to her subjects. While those may be some extreme examples, and there are episodes where the antagonistic force is too many dresses or friends not getting along, it's definitely a far cry from what I thought it would be.
 
Point is, it's a good idea to wait until the show is actually a thing before passing a final judgement.
 
If it turns out like that, then that's bad and your complaints are legitimate, but it's one promo image, subject to change and even as it is, incredibly context sensitive.
 
And after all:
 
Context.jpg
 
 

A show that portrays six skinny girls all of the same fashion, made to wear skirts and makeup, all of the same height and build, is a perpetuation of negative female stereotypes and ideals in the media and no amount of writing will change that physical aspect.

 

This is the prime example of the point Xort, and also I, it seems, are making. There is no show as of yet, it has yet to come about. You're basing your side on a mountain of variables derived from one picture. If they all fall into place for you, you'd be right, and I, and I doubt Xort, would deny that. But if any number of those variables ends up not being the case for you, your entire platform collapses beneath you.

 

Right now, and as much as I know you hate this, you're pulling a Dermot by stating something that's so highly variable as nothing other than solid fact. For him it was that Falco IS gay, no if, and, or but about it. You, are stating that it IS reinforcing negative stereotypes and undermining the messages of FiM, and basing it on one promo image that could so easily be rendered null and void by any number of things. Granted yours has a more solid backing than Dermot's claim, but it's still mostly speculation. If everything does turn out the way you think, again, you'd be right and I'll be among the first, if not the first, to admit it. But right now, it's too damn early to tell and can easily not be the case.

 

 

Also, to me, that is an argument. A debate is the fencing of minds based on fact and only about fact. This is a down and dirty mudslinging and a "Nuh-uh ya-huh" fight, not a debate, but an argument.

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Drasiana

There is literally no argument there because somewhere in the past few months Xort has degraded from someone who can hold an argument with acknowledgement of the societal effects of a situation, something I made the mistake of assuming he was knowledgeable about, into someone who will throw a temper tantrum over the slightest conflict.

 

I stand by what I said, though.

 

A show that portrays six skinny girls all of the same fashion, made to wear skirts and makeup, all of the same height and build, is a perpetuation of negative female stereotypes and ideals in the media and no amount of writing will change that physical aspect.

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OneUnder

There is literally no argument there because somewhere in the past few months Xort has degraded from someone who can hold an argument with acknowledgement of the societal effects of a situation, something I made the mistake of assuming he was knowledgeable about, into someone who will throw a temper tantrum over the slightest conflict.

 

Do try and debate your grievances as opposed to flat-out insulting other users.  I have no idea what went on in that last topic, though if I see any wanton insults hurled around there will be some sort of consequence. 

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Faisul

I don't think it's unreasonable for Dras to make the assumptions she does about the show based on the promo image. She did show a better, second version of it that took into account some of her grievances with the earlier one, and she acknowledged as much.

 

As for this topic, the extent of the media's influence on young people is generally under-appreciated. The advertising industry has as its stated objective to manipulate people into thinking they want something they don't need, but that's them, and a whole other debate. But with a kid's show, the line between entertainment and advertising is so blurred that it is extremely important to pay attention to what the show is telling the target audience as if it was an advertisement. FiM is an excellent example of a show done really well, that can sell toys and at the same time communicate to the target audience (young girls) that it's alright to not subscribe to the roles and images generally foisted on them from so many other places. The show is really solid, and deserves the praise it gets.

 

However, the move from FiM to this new show - unless the first concept lineup was made in a terrible rush to get something out to the producers NOW NOW NOW, I don't think it's unfair to be skeptical. With the second, yeah, it's a little better, but the whole idea of putting it in a high school, with all the crap that could entail, as well as having the characters look like these idealized super princesses - it's not a good first impression. But who knows, maybe the show has some depth to it like FiM did, that can communicate some of the same messages in a more traditional 'girl cartoon' setting. It's a tough sell, though. Considering that the promo stuff is meant to clue you in on what the show is about in as few visual cues as possible has to be taken into account - concept art and promotional material is supposed to show what the thing is about at a glance, after all.

 

The tricky part about media influence is that, to me, it's cyclical - the media helps enforce certain conceptions of the world in the consumer by delivering bite-sized versions of idealized unreality, and the consumer helps continue the practice by consuming them. This is true to all entertainment and isn't a problem, generally, except when it comes to kids, because their conception of the world is very limited and they're impressionable as all hell. This isn't anything new of course, you've all heard this before and it's all very trite and holy fuck I feel old saying this, but the difference now is the intensity of the messages being conveyed by the media and how much it's been distilled into a science over the past few decades. While some kids are able to clue in on what the media is trying to do, many don't, and they're stuck living in a reality where binary ideals of boy = blue and girl = pink are somehow unshakeable, objective truths until they have the breathing space to realize differently. Only, that breathing space is becoming increasingly harder to attain, especially for girls, because wherever they look that has a screen or display window they see a barbie doll.

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Vy'drach

I'm skeptical as well but I'm making a point of not mentally condemning it because if you convince yourself it's bad before actually trying it, it will be bad if you do try it. The idea of the Mane 6 suddenly becoming nearly human and attending a high school sounds pretty bad, and the promo designs don't make it better, but it's one thing to be skeptical and another thing to be condemning it as being the anti-thesis to what Friendship is Magic has been trying to establish towards feministic goals.

 

Like I said, I am very skeptical and think that, like the new Care Bears and Littlest Pet Shop show, is a cash grab by Hasbro to try and get as much out of bronies as they potentially can, but I can still see promise for this as well. I personally am hoping for Principlestia and Vice Principle Luna. And class clown Discord.

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Drasiana

See it wouldn't be so bad if it was an AU, but by the sound of it, it isn't, it's linear to the main show. The press release on the MLP wiki says: "[the series is about] sending the pony heroes on a mission to a new world where they take on human form." So they're suddenly reducing adult women with their own careers into high school students. I wouldn't be as bothered with it if it were an AU, at least in that regard, but by taking away the freedoms they had in FiM for the sake of forcing them into a high school role as they are feels a little uncomfortable and infantalized. They don't want to show mature women, and this is a pretty pervasive problem in media in general. I'll get more into that in another post I guess but I'm making dinner right now so trying to keep it brief :V

 

Anyway as I've said the bulk of my problem lies in the designs themselves because they show a single body type and sense of style. Intentionally or not, this sends the message to girls that they are only allowed to look like this. It's a shitty subconscious thing but it's there and it will be there until young girls start seeing shows with girls who actually look like girls in it.

 

However as I've also said, I don't mind the other official lineup as much because they actually did vary the characters' body types (Rarity and Pinkie are a little chubbier, RD has toned legs, Fluttershy is skinny), Rainbow Dash still has choppy hair (all of them lose the stupid hair extensions), and they aren't covered in makeup and bizarre animal parts. I'll post it again here:

 

Equestria_Girls_February_14_2013_charact

 

I still think it's a dumb idea but these models are in a better direction.

 

This is MY personal favourite design though

 

edit: I almost wonder if this lineup is the official show lineup whereas the other image will be only used for the dolls. That's...better, I guess? I mean, at least the show would have slightly less horrible looking characters. Still not so great that girls can only buy toys that depict idealized girls though.

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Drasiana

Whoa dude why didn't you make a new post I didn't even see your comment.



Point is, it's a good idea to wait until the show is actually a thing before passing a final judgement.

 
The thing is, what you both seem to be missing is that I'm "passing judgement" on a single promo image AND what the creators have said about the show so far. I'm not freaking out about the idea of there being Equestria Girls in general. I'm repulsed by what they've shown us. It could change by the final product, but why do you think it would change at all if people don't express their distaste for what they've been shown?
 
And I'm not entirely sure how "all of them look the same" is "context-sensitive", unless they're going to spring a cloning plot onto us.
 

And please stop using memes. This is a debate topic.

 

 

This is the prime example of the point Xort, and also I, it seems, are making. There is no show as of yet, it has yet to come about. You're basing your side on a mountain of variables derived from one picture. If they all fall into place for you, you'd be right, and I, and I doubt Xort, would deny that. But if any number of those variables ends up not being the case for you, your entire platform collapses beneath you.

 

And if I'm right, then you guys will look like a bunch of assholes. You're trying to "defeat" my argument by saying "you could be wrong, but you could be right". What? If I'm wrong, I'll be happy, and if I'm right, it'll just be another mark in the tally of shitty shows directed at girls. Actually, if I'm right, I don't actually win here. I kind of WANT to be wrong about this show, but the legitimate aspects that we have seen are not making me optimistic about the direction that it is headed in because it's just another step in a pattern that female-centric media has followed for ages. You guys might not understand the nuance to that because you were never the target audience, and that's not meant as an insult or anything, you guys just have never had to view these shows as representations of yourself. You haven't learned to become uncomfortable with it, as many girls who grew up with this being forcefed to them have.

 

Imagine you're a dog, and your owner is a cheap asshole who only buys one brand of food that gives you horrible digestive problems. But it's your only option for food because it's all your owner buys, so you keep eating it. Maybe occasionally your owner splurges on a nice can of food that goes down well and tastes good, but because you're a dog, you're never quite sure when this will be, so you've learned to be skeptical of everything you eat because it has a history of giving you explosive diarrhea.

 

It's kind of like that.

 

 

Right now, and as much as I know you hate this, you're pulling a Dermot

 

Okay I know I just asked you to stop posting memes but this is almost worthy of a Psyduck. Especially considering you then say I'm "more justified" anyways. Dermot was applying his headcanons to an existing narrative, I am criticizing an official work, there is a pretty big difference. I'm forming my opinion based on what we have actually seen and heard about the show from the creators themselves. You can compare me to Dermot if Dermot's arguments ever consisted of "hey remember that time that Miyamoto said that Falco fucked a dude once" and then linked to an article where that was actually said. The big difference here is that it wasn't. These EG images, however, actually exist.


 

You, are stating that it IS reinforcing negative stereotypes and undermining the messages of FiM, and basing it on one promo image that could so easily be rendered null and void by any number of things. Granted yours has a more solid backing than Dermot's claim, but it's still mostly speculation. If everything does turn out the way you think, again, you'd be right and I'll be among the first, if not the first, to admit it. But right now, it's too damn early to tell and can easily not be the case.

 

What part aren't you guys getting, in that I am criticizing aspects of the show that they have officially released? You're acting like the official images that I am criticizing aren't even canon, which they most probably are considering they are using them for promotional work. And again, my criticism of them is not comparable to the criticism of FiM promo stuff because the characters in that were horses. These are human girls (er, sort of) and their designs are subject to a different criteria based in the fact that they are representing a physical ideal for their audience now, something that the previous equine characters did not.


 

And please, tell me how what we've seen isn't enforcing negative stereotypes? Let me reiterate this:

 

All the characters have the same slim, idealized body.

All the characters are wearing makeup.

All the characters are wearing skirts.

All the characters have flowing, luscious hair.

 

These are beauty standards that are forced onto girls at a young age. God forbid you're a chubby child or a tomboy or someone with frizzy hair. You are told by the media that you consume that this is what you are supposed to look like. The dolls you play with, the characters you watch, they all conform to this standard. And then people ridicule you, because you do not. There's a pretty awesome topic about the effects of bullying going on in the QnA forum going on right now, go give it a read, because many of those effects cross over with the pressures young girls feel thanks to what they are fed through the media. It's not that the Equestria Girls images I take issues with are the sole cause of this problem, but they are just one of many contributing factors to why eight year olds think they need to diet.

 

I've already pointed out that the other lineup is far better in terms of portraying different body shapes, so I don't take as much issue with it if they're going with that design.

 

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make now, though. You're telling me it's too early to criticize something that already exists?

 

Sure, I am speculating about their roles in high school, but please offer me alternate scenerios on how they will handle the downgrade from adult-to-teenager involving the characters.

 

In FiM, Rainbow Dash is trying to get into the Equestrian equivalent of the air force. Rarity is a renown fashion designer. Applejack (with her family) runs a farm. Fluttershy has tea with bears. Pinkie...erm, okay, Pinkie is just Pinkie. Then Twilight Sparkle is the prodigy to God. How is this going to translate to high school with the same impact? I'm more than willing to hear suggestions on how they can do this without taking away the agency the characters had in the original show.

 

Agency is important to female characters because they don't have a lot of it. As I previously mentioned, I am uncomfortable with suddenly putting these characters in high school because it's playing into the cultural need to infantalize women as characters. It's the same sort of situation that applies to "moe culture". People are just too dang uncomfortable to portray girls as anything other than young, ideal, and vulnerable. Not saying they're going to explicitly play into the "vulnerable" bit, but it feels like a step back from the situation the characters were already in. Rainbow Dash is going to do what, go from the Wonderbolts to a track and field team? It feels a little contrived that the "big mission" that the multi-time saviours of Equestria are embarking on is to become human teenagers. The infantalization has been a problem in the most recent Disney princess movies as well.

 

To use an example here to make better sense of it, compare the male and female role models in this age bracket. There is a grey area when you involve mixed-gender shows, but looking to more exclusive ones you see the discrepancies. Dudes get superheroes, or on the occasion that the characters are in school, there's something extra to them that makes their story unique (like being a boy genius or secret superhero). Girls get...high school girls. It's even in the title: Equestria Girls. Imagine if, like, the Power Rangers were all male and they were called the Power Boys instead. I'm curious how as to how you guys would feel about that? There HAVE been girls' shows that aren't like this, but for every one there are five others that are condescending, stereotype-enforcing tripe.

 

It wouldn't be as bothersome if this was just some weird AU prequel-type thing, but as I quoted it branches off from the linear timeline. It's not a matter of going "what if this cast was teenagers", it's literally just turning a bunch of adults into teenagers because money. This isn't speculation, it's what they're actually doing.

 

edit: Can we actually get a forum rule that makes it illegal to invoke Dermot/Sabre's Law? It's a really dumb scapegoat and neither of them actually apply to anything here, it's just a tactic being used by you people to demonize your opponent with an exaggerated comparison. When I start harassing people over PM, comparing "furry oppression" to racism, or use TvTropes as a source in an attempt to justify my ships, then feel free to actually make those comparisons. If you guys are so starved for drama that you want to turn me into a forum boogeyman for my opinions on a television show, you need a hobby.

 

edit 2: And to continue the thread that I am in no way saying this is an issue exclusive to EG, check out what they did to Pocahontas (alongside others) for the newest official Disney princess redesigns:

 

tumblr_mhihp18K1q1qzl2xuo1_500.jpg

 

Compared to an edit (left) based on her original, actual appearance in the movie. The "updated" version lightened her skin, thinned her eyebrows and jawline, gave her a button nose and wider eyes, thinned her waist, gave her makeup it makes no sense for her to be wearing, and then added weird Urban Outfitters "tribal" earrings. Do you see what I'm getting at here with the way that women are portrayed? Not only has she been whitewashed and decked out in culturally-inaccurate accessories, her face has been remoulded to suit the caucasian beauty standard...the same way the EG models are shaped. God forbid you're a woman with a strong jawline, or thick eyebrows, or a flat nose, or y'know, just plain aren't white. Click for a screencap for further comparison.

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R3dFiVe

You've got to be kidding me, Dras. That Pocahontas stuff is official? Where is it being used, or why did they change that for? Is she just being printed like that on merchandise? Woha, considering how people ALREADY had a problem with the inaccurate portrayal of a native american woman this is like Disney basically giving us a big "fuck you" just like the addition of Vader's "nooo" in Return of the Jedi XD

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Drasiana

Yeah it's pretty terrible. The images are being used for promotion in stores and on merchandise and such, which I imagine is the same purpose that the terrible EG images are being used for.

 

71871_341253409318963_632536393_n.jpg

 

Jasmine and Mulan have also been somewhat whitewashed, and Tiana to an extent too but I think her skin colour is just a victim of shoddy attempts at lighting.

 

"Princesses" are kind of their own can of worms in terms of female portrayals but at least the original princess designs were a bit more unique from one another. I hate how they sameface'd Aurora and Belle, when Aurora is supposed to have sharper features. Also what the fuck is that GLITTER.

 

As long as we're going to talk about princesses too though I kind of mentioned earlier how I disliked the infantalization of female characters in the media and that Disney has been going this route with their last two princesses (Rapunzel, and the protagonist from Frozen). I attended the Disney panel at SDCC before Tangled was released, which was really cool, and they talked a bit about Rapunzel's design...and really, really, emphasized how she was naive and fragile and how that carried into her design. This didn't really bother me, because it made sense within the context of her character, having been locked in a tower all her life, and it's a one-off thing, so okay.

 

Then...they "updated" Frozen, and...

 

d558458977893fdc14c1e7d970fff5f6.jpg

 

:I

 

Not only is this REALLY FUCKING LAZY, but it's sort of a little obvious they're forcing a character type, especially once a press release stated that Anna was going to be--oh, another naive, fragile and bumbling young girl that must be guided on her adventure by a strong, reluctant man.

 

And it's especially obvious considering Frozen is an adaptation of The Snow Queen...a story where neither of these characters actually existed.

 

The Snow Queen was originally about a poor little girl whose best friend is kidnapped by the Snow Queen, and it's her that must embark on an adventure to save him, of course meeting lots of nifty people along the way. Why did they have to change this? While Disney adaptations are never accurate to the original story, for pretty obvious reasons, they at least ensure to keep, y'know, the main characters. Reading the synopsis of the original story is pretty angering when you find out what they've reduced the movie to. Obviously they couldn't include all of it for the sake of a 90-minute film, but how about at least SOME of it? Literally the only similarity now is that, uh, there's a Snow Queen in it, but their relationship isn't the same thing--Anna and her are sisters. Because Rapunzel versus her "Mother" wasn't a similar enough story, I guess.

 

Gerda, the original protagonist, was again a character who had control over her own story, it was about her, she had to be witty and lead the charge to save her friend, who was a boy, giving a nice rarely-seen role reversal on the situation. But no, now she's a naive ditz named Anna who needs her hand held by a random dude on the way to have a heartfelt talk with her sister. What the fuck, Disney?

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R3dFiVe

Oh yeah, how quickly I forgot about 'Frozen'

 

You know, most of these characters I think look very pretty actually and it's true that I must've seen the exact same banner at least in a Disney store in Scotland but..um....I never noticed Pocahontas.

Eh, only coz she's female doesn't mean you need to pretty her up like THAT to fit in... it's kind of like how people can say Peach, Zelda and SAMUS in one breath without thinking it kind of sounds wrong.

 

 

But haha, seriously look at Pocahontas, it's getting funnier with every viewing :D

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Drasiana

Some of them aren't too bad...I actually think Ariel's design is pretty cute, I like her shell earrings. And Cinderella and Snow White are okay other than the stupid Photoshop-brush swirls on their dresses (and the COPIOUS GLITTER). Pocahontas is definitely the worst of the bunch though, mostly because she has the most facial alterations.

 

Samus is another good example of "good female character made pathetic" with Other M...

 

Zelda's a pretty good character but I don't like how the second she realizes she's herself in Wind Waker she pales up and hides in a cave for the rest of the game D:

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R3dFiVe

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong Zelda is great! And so is Peach, in her own right.

My point was that both Peach and Zelda are princesses and people love putting Samus along these two, who is supposed to be a battle hardened bounter hunter.

Peach and Zelda can't be more different, but they both are princesses of their kingdom and most of their incarnations are blonde so I can't see why Nintendo wouldn't market them together to kind of imitate what Disney is doing, if they ever do that actively.

But only because Samus was kind of made "pretty" in her Zero Suit thing she's....supposed to be similar to Peach and Zelda, how exactly? Nintendo isn't doing this but fans do it quite a lot. They basically turned her into a princess, too ;/

 

(Don't get me started on Other M.....grajrgjagrjhgajr)

 

My post might be pretty pointless, seeing how Nintendo doesn't market it themselves, but I only mentioned it because Pocahontas kind of rubbed me the wrong way there, just like Samus does among people who kind of have a pattern going on, that she has nothing to do with, originally.

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myu

Holy shit, I didn't even recognize Belle and Aurora.

 

I remember a while ago Disney was like, re-releasing older movies with touch ups and in higher definition or something. One of the things I noticed is that the touch ups they did were mainly adding make up to the leading ladies. Belle, for instance when I saw it in theatres again, had glossier lips and blush. She's a country girl who couldn't give a fuck about appearances WHICH IS KIND OF LIKE THE WHOLE POINT MADE IN THAT MOVIE?? so what is she doing running around fields and through dark forests with make up on?

 

I'm still waiting for the day when they make a princess who's on the heavier side, not the prettiest girl but that's presented in a way that isn't comedic, but I'm sure if that ever happens, people will throw a fit like they did with Tiana. Her original designs were WAY different from she ended up looking like, I think the biggest difference was her hair and body type (curlier and curvier, like black women tend to be). They ended up making her conform to the beauty standard because people got upset. Some original concept art here. I'm not even sure what people were so upset about since she's still really beautiful -- just not the conventional beauty you see all over magazines, I guess. It really bothered me, since I know a lot of black girls are uncomfortable with their natural hair, so having Tiana with natural, super curly hair could have been a huge confidence booster.

 

It's been sort of a trend with Disney lately. They're afraid to step out of the aesthetically pleasing cookie-cutter princess box they've created, although I admit Merida was a nice departure.

 

And lastly, since the focus has been the impact on girls rather than guys, I guess we should mention the change in Flynn's design from Tangled. I think his original name was Bastion, too? Again, he doesn't fit society's ideal appearance, but I think he was more relatable. I know it's not just girls and women who have body image issues. They changed him into Miguel and Tulio's love child for some reason.

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Drasiana

Well, never fear about Bastion. It appears they recycled his design into the dude from Frozen:

 

Frozen-Concept-Art-2.jpg

 

Jesus, Disney :I

 

I agree that I liked Merida's design a lot, but that was more under Pixar's control. Y'know, despite my problems with Brave (mostly the fact that it was very obviously two different scripts mushed together) I did like that Merida's story was more about fighting a traditional institution that harmed everybody, not about fighting "being a girl".

 

I'm glad you brought up Tiana too. You probably know more about it than I do, but I know the whole hair-shaming thing with black girls has been pretty pervasive, and they're pressured to have straight, flowing hair instead of what they're born with.

 

@R3D: Ah, I see what you're saying. I think Nintendo has actually done a good job with developing Peach away from the "damsel in distress" type. She's not perfect, but damn I loved her in Brawl. Walking away from an explosion with a parasol and giving no fucks? You go, girl. Hopefully they don't go the Nintendo Princesses route, though that would be, I think, a pretty bizarre marketing flop that might actually be funny to witness.

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myu

I figured. Merida definitely had the 'Pixar feel' to her design. But she's still Disney, so I'm hoping they'll consider taking some cues from that. They just need to have the balls to do it and not listen to people who want the ladies to be barbies.

 

Haha, yeahh. The hair thing is pretty close to home. My mom had me have my straightened, relaxed, etc up until college, when I finally took control and just cut it all off (she cried). Albeit, all the shit we went through was mostly because she's not familiar with my hair type and other black women told her to do it, because that's what they do with their daughters or somethin'

 

EDIT: I love how not-Bastion seems to know what a trainwreck this will be and just doesn't want to be there

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R3dFiVe

Merida is beyond adorable!

 

And I don't really see the beef with Tiana O_o

While I personally think every single version in that link is lovely, she doesn't even necessarrily strike me as something THAT out of the ordinary.

 

Guh, I guess if people want to bitch about something they WILL eventually find something to bitch about ._.

Eh, I'm really used to Tiana's official design and I like it very much. But I wouldn't have minded any of those other designs.

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myu

The only 'problem' I have with Tiana's design is that she's the stereotypical black beauty queen. That's literally what all of them look like. The main reason such a thing was made out of it was because her race was made into the focus. THE FIRST BLACK PRINCESS, although I think there's been some debate as to whether or not that was Jasmine, since I've seen people argue that Agrabah's location could have been somewhere in Nrothern Africa.

 

But yes, the media made a huge thing of Tiana's race, so people jumped on it.

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Faisul

That Pocahontas. What the hell, Disney. How do you not see the shit you're doing. How do you not see. Absolutely terrible. ANYWAY,

 

Samus. Samus. Jesus wept. Samus. The following will be a lot of angry ranting and maybe some hyperbole for effect but I swear I'm not making any of this up. It's been a while so I may be misremembering parts of it but this is what I got. Also spoilers.

 

If there's one video game franchise when the gender of the protagonist went from this cool unspoken unimportant thing to some weird guy's image of *girls think like THIS* it's the Metroid series. This has already been beaten to death so many times over but I still can't get over what an absolute disaster the game was. Gameplay-wise? Pretty good, but the awful, godawful plot and the way it was delivered completely screwed the game over for me. And I had looked forward to it so much...

For the (admittedly few) of you that don't already know, the co-creator of the first Metroid, Yoshio Sakamoto, felt like going back to making a Metroid after doing whatever. The guy has a reputation for being a little weird, but while he wrote the script for a bunch of the GBA Metroid games, his kookery didn't really shine through. He has an impressive portfolio of classic games - Donkey Kong, Wario Ware, he's worked on those and more. In the GBA Metroid games, there were some *MOTHER ISSUES* and what have you mixed in, but at the time it wasn't eyebrow-raising to any real degree. While we had scenes of Samus, wait, I mean, Samus, pontificating in elevators over whatever for what felt like a million years, the whole story didn't revolve around her being a baby-crazy hysteric. Fast forward to Other M, and my god.

 

So here we have Samus Aran, intergalactic bounty hunter, chosen of the Chozo, probably one of the most powerful characters in the game universe and yet, she's a total slave to this dude she went to the Pew Pew space academy with. She completely divorces herself from any independence she had prior to reuniting this jackass because he was basically her daddy in the academy and has a shiny medal on his chest.

 

At this point in the canon she's already been raised by the bird people into relative adulthood before getting kicked out of the nest to bust some space pirate chops, does so, and has been kicking ass ever since, on her own. Yoshio takes one look at this and goes 'nah, not enough daddy issues, girls can't be cool and not indenture themselves to the first penis-haver to smile at them.' So there we go, Samus won't do a thing on her own, basically, until Adam says it's okay for her to. At one point in the game she wades through a lava-filled hellscape, the temperatures of the environment clearly almost killing her, without activating her heat shielding. Why? Adam didn't say so. As soon as he says pretty princess can, pretty princess does. What the fuck.

 

There's more. Not even half-way through the game and we've had to sit through cutscene after cutscene of Samus idolizing this incompetent idiot until something mean actually knocks her off her chops and proceeds to try to eat her face. We're forced to sit and waggle uselessly as some space lizard does its best to not-rape the most badass of badasses in the universe and she can't fight it off. It takes the token black guy of the team to shoot it off her with his laser penis, which is really really big, by the way.

 

Man, at this point, I could go on forever. What's important here? Oh yeah, mommy issues. Yeah, so far we have a female protagonist who can't do jack shit without having not-daddy tell her what to do, but we're also forced to endure the blatant motherhood imagery (the bottle ship, what the hell) and Samus' long-winded soliloquies about 'the baby.' Who is the baby? It's a brain-sucking alien. Do you know what other sci-fi story tried to do this?

Alien_Resurrection_poster.jpg
 

This is a bad movie. But if I recall correctly, at least in this bad movie, Ripley is still shown to have the brains to blast the shit out of her horrible alien clonebaby without going into histrionics about it. She's shown as being just shaken up enough about it so that we understand that's she's essentially taken a very very late term abortion, but it's still a horrible face-eating evil alien clonebaby, so Ripley, being a space badass, knows what she's gotta do. She's gotta abort that evil alien facemunching clonebaby.

 

What happens in Other M? I don't know, I quit about three hours in, but Samus certainly rambles on about BABBY a whole goddamn lot during those hours! So it turns out a Metroid saved her from the evil big-eyed death hag aka. 'mother brain' earlier and that means Samus owes her life to a brain-sucking horrible space alien. Instead of dusting off her shoulder, shedding a tear, and moving on, BABBY comes up again and again. So not only has Samus completely rid herself of agency, her quasi-motherhood gets blown up into this huge damn thing she can't take her mind off of long enough to not screw up about half of what she tries to do. Yes, motherhood and themes of motherhood are central to many women's lives and stories, good stories, about them, but if motherhood is basically used to turn a woman from an individual with agency into an emotionally shackled, preening zombie, that's not a good story about a woman. A woman doesn't turn from one person to another just because of BABBY.

 

Okay, so this ran a bit longer than I expected but to close this off, Yoshio has, if I am not mistaken, been a bit controversial to Metroid fans following this Other M business. While Retro was doing a bang-up job making the Prime trilogy, it is said amongst the rushes and the flowing winds that Yoshio was really, really disappointed in what they were doing. His ultimate vision, I have been told, was Other M, the game where we are constantly reminded that Samus has a vagina, is bad at being Samus, and BABBY. Also she wears this ridiculous skin-tight blue jump suit that shows basically everything and bldsfabgbaslfdkjhlkgajgsn
 

I'm not kidding myself here thinking Retro's Samus was this super fantastic female protagonist role model, but in their games her gender was not an issue. She was not shown making terrible decisions or signing off her independence to some twonk because of her gender. She being a woman didn't really come up; it didn't have to, because it had nothing to do with what was going on in the plot. She was there to do Samus stuff, shoot up aliens, save worlds, and be awesome. No buttshots, no Adam, no BABBY, no stupid creepy almost-rape crap.

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Redeemer

I kind of always had a love-hate thing for The Little Mermaid. I loved the story but I disliked Ariel. Even from a young age, I thought she was a spoiled brat, and when I watch the original movie, she has a physically impossible tiny waist. And what was Ursula? A big obese octopus. A sassy one, I love her so much and I sing Poor Unfortunate Souls when I shower, but her design was pretty mean.

 

Regarding the picture of the human ponies, I can see subtle differences. Pinkie Pie has a rounder face, it's pretty cute, but also (could be my eyes and laptop screen messing with me here) I can only see makeup on Rarity. I get the feeling that these shapes, waist etc. are for simplicity, it's too doll-maker to be the final design. Surely if Hasbro or whoever is in charge has any dignity, they will give the Mane 6 more physical differences other than their shape of face.

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Drasiana

The lineup I posted was actually the "good" one that I liked, because of the reasons you said. When I'm criticizing designs it's these ones:

 

Equestria_Girls_March_2_2013_character_d

 

 

The Little Mermaid is an interesting movie. Though I agree that the body-type thing was kinda douchey, people have also given it flak for reasons like "Ariel bases her entire fate on a man". But looking back on it, the movie seems to be more about leading the life you want to live despite what authority has predetermined for you. Also learning to stand up and speak for yourself. The lyrics in Poor Unfortunate Souls where Ursula tells Ariel that men don't want women to talk, when it's Ariel's voice that helps her achieve her goals, are especially interesting.

 

also Faisul makes goodposts

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Redeemer

Wow what is wrong with TS's face there, that's kind of creepy. I also love the David Bowie look RD has with the lightning on her face.

 

Okay, I see lip colours here on all of them but Fluttershy. I don't like how they're all in skirts simply because I find that boring, but they're cute otherwise. I really hope there are some changes so that they don't all look the same. I would truly appreciate different body shapes. I picture RD to be stocky, Pinkie Pie to be chubby, Rarity to be hourglass-shaped, etc. It's just from their lifestyle. There is no way Pinkie Pie can eat so much candy and not be chubby.

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Drasiana

I'm thiiiinking that the first lineup I posted will be their real designs for the show, which would be nice, because it shows a pointy-faced RD with muscular legs, a chubby Pinkie, a curvy Rarity, a pencil-bodied Fluttershy, etc. and though I still dislike that they're all wearing skirts, at least RD's has a more sporty shape here.

 

The other designs, I think, are in the "terrible Disney princess redesign" boat of being used more for marketing and dolls. It's still kinda problematic though, not having dolls that physically represent you...

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