Showtime 1-1 Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 How does the control system in the Arwing work, you ask?I have tried to answer this since I first discovered (and failed at playing) Starfox. How would the Awring be controlled in real life? This is more a question for a fanatic pilot (heheheh...) then anybody else, because it does seem a little trivial. I also get into real plane controls just for comparison, but I get the feeling that most of you know that stuff already.I have narrowed it down to two real possibilities, judging by the commonly accepted layout of the craft's cockpit via comics and cutscenes (left and right sidesticks, foot pedals and a wraparound multifunction touch screen).(NOTE: the descriptions here might get a but complicated. I suggest you pretend you're sitting in an Arwing, if you weren't already, and mime the controls.)1. The HOSAT (Hands-On Stick And Throttle) system: the system found in all of Earth's fighter aircraft designed after about the mid 1970's. The left sidestick is the throttle (forward= boost, rearward=brakes), the right sidestick is the control stick (move left to roll left, move right to roll right, pull back for nose up. push forward for nose down), and the pedals control the rudder (left pedal yaws[turns] nose left, right pedal yaws nose right). This system is widely used because it allows the pilot to use all essential controls in a fight without having to take their hands off of anything. All neccesary buttons are mounted on the sidesticks (trigger on right stick fires lazers, trigger on right stick fires bombs). The touch screen would be for functions such as ignition, navigation and radar.2. The GUNDAM system (so named because of similarity to the controls in animé mobile suits): The left and right sidesticks both control speed and direction in a "skid-steer" sort of way. This means that moving the left stick forward while not moving the right stick would cause a right turn by speeding up the left side of the craft. Moving the left stick forward and the right stick back would cause an even tighter right turn by speeding up the left side of the craft and slowing down the right side. To pull the nose up, you would pull both sticks back towards you, and to push the nose down, you would push both sticks forward. The foot pedals would control speed (Either one pedal being boost and one brakes, or the pedals would be linked, so pushing your toe down on either one would be boost and pushing your heel down on either one would be brakes). The touch screen would have the same functions as above, and the triggers for lazers and bombs would be as above as well.The main problem I have deciding how the controls really work comes from differences between the way one controls an airplane and the way one controls an Arwing. In an airplane, when you move the control stick left, you don't turn left, you just roll left. This is a BARREL ROLL (thanks Peppy) in the Starfox universe, known as an aileron roll to non-Arwing pilots. (NOTE: Okay, hop out of your Arwing and into an Earth-borne airplane now. The following paragraph explaines how real airplane controls work, including the "HOSAT" system you learned about above. You can keep your imaginary controls in the same places, but don't forget the rudder pedals by your feet!)In a real airplane, in order to turn left, you have to first roll left a little bit with the control stick, then you add some left rudder (via pushing the pedal at your left foot), which is what actually turns you. Then you pull back on the control stick through the turn to keep the nose up. To do a fighter-plane syle fast turn, you roll the plane sideways with the control stick so that the direction you want to go is now above your head. Then you pull back on the stick to bring the nose "up" to where you want to go (This is called "Lift Vectoring" or a "Pylon Turn"). See how much trouble Nintendo saved you by making a simple push-left, go-left control system? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asper Sarnoff Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I'd say judging by the E3 trailer for Assault, that they used the "GUNDAM" system. But I can't say for sure how the first gen Arwings are controlled.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpWwE5B6ylA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showtime 1-1 Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 I think that video was a classic case of "Do what looks cool".Not that I mind. After all, it does look cool. Unfortunately, I have a bit of a "thing" for functionality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asper Sarnoff Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Same here. But I fail to see how that system would be less functional than the standard fighter controls. Maybe more difficult to program in the required precision and sensitivty. But it think it would pay back by feeling more natural and being easier to learn for new pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePointingMan Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I think the voice of fox Mccloud in that vid was done by the voice actor of tricky, just listen to the way he says who am I? I'm Fox Mccloud, and don't forget it.sure glad they changed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursed Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I'd say judging by the E3 trailer for Assault, that they used the "GUNDAM" system. But I can't say for sure how the first gen Arwings are controlled.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpWwE5B6ylAyes ,but a question arrives from that video how do they pitch up or down or roll it seems the leavers fox used were simplythrottle controls. and is it just me but does the blaster in that video look alot likeThe halo Assault rifle.http://www.levels4you.com/cdc/halo/rifle.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showtime 1-1 Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 I don't think the nintendo guys even thought about now the Arwing is flown, after all, it's controls are just a detail. I was hoping to find, or at least voice my opinion about, a system that could be used universally, ie in comics and fan fiction. And I just might be working on an Arwing and cockpit for a flight sim... As for that video, if it's the trailer that they showed at E3 before Assault came out, I think I can see why it didn't get a rave response. Fox's voice and the texture of the characters themselves needed changing, and it looks like they did some work on the gameplay too.And I thought that assault rifle looked familliar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asper Sarnoff Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 yes ,but a question arrives from that video how do they pitch up or down or roll it seems the leavers fox used were simplythrottle controls.Simple, to DO A BARREL ROLL, shove both sticks to the left or right depending on what direction you want to roll. The pitch is controlled by how far you push them from you. The thrust by pedals.To see how the rolling works, check out from 05:48 & 06:09 on this video. (For the refernce, I didn't like the Phantom Menace. Not at all.)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlVLexpymrI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showtime 1-1 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 Sorta reminds me of the Spitfire controls, where you don't move the joystick to roll, you pivot the top section.The only question I have about the controls in the naboo fighter is how do you yaw? If turining the joysticks is roll, pushing or pulling them is pitch and foot pedals are thrust, how do you make a nice, coordinated turn? It seems that you can only roll, then use the lift vector.This would be fine in combat, but what if you were landing and needed to make a last-second directional correction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursed Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 autopilot by droid i still wonder why the halo assault rifle show's up in that video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showtime 1-1 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 Autopilot landing? That takes half the excitement out of the flight! Not to mention the fact that it condones one of the seven deadly sins: Sloth.I tried to trace that rifle back to microsoft somehow, perhaps through the middleware used in developing assault, but to me it just seems like plain old plagarism/lack of originality. Perhaps they were trying to entice the lighter Halo players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asper Sarnoff Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Sorta reminds me of the Spitfire controls, where you don't move the joystick to roll, you pivot the top section.The only question I have about the controls in the naboo fighter is how do you yaw? If turining the joysticks is roll, pushing or pulling them is pitch and foot pedals are thrust, how do you make a nice, coordinated turn? It seems that you can only roll, then use the lift vector.This would be fine in combat, but what if you were landing and needed to make a last-second directional correction?I think due to the design of the Naboo fighter. With the engines so far apart, it could be achived by using the thrust pedals. The right one controlls the thrust output of the right engine, the left the left. Increasing the thrust on one side should theorieticaly make it change direction without using roll-pitch.There could perhaps be other ways to fix that with the foot pedals. Toe controlls thrust, heel yaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-Shot Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 is it just me but does the blaster in that video look alot likeThe halo Assault rifle.http://www.levels4you.com/cdc/halo/rifle.jpgIs it me, or does it look like the Halo assault rifle looks like Doomguy's gun? http://www.dzarchive.com/iragination/clips/bassabyss/screens/newcomerDoomGuy.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Draco Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well, seeing how the Arwing, Wolfen, or any areospace craft in Star Fox doesn't have vertical tailfins, they wouldn't need rudder countrol.Here's my hypothesis:It would be the GUNDAM control scheme (as shown in the Assault trailer), with the joysticks controlling the wing elevators, and the pedals controlling G-Diffuser output. Pressing down on one pedal would increase output, resulting in a brake, and pushing the other pedal would decrease G-Diffuser output, resulting in a boost. Basically, they're brake and gas pedals.Either that, or they hook up N64/Gamecube controllers to their ships. Oh, if you look closely at the Assualt trailer, the joystick buttons in the Arwing are buttons on the Gamecube controller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showtime 1-1 Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well, seeing how the Arwing, Wolfen, or any areospace craft in Star Fox doesn't have vertical tailfins, they wouldn't need rudder countrol.Just because there are no vertical fins, does not mean there is no yaw. After all, in the game, every single turn is perfectly coordinated, perhaps even with a little too much yaw input.Your idea about the G-diffuser makes sense, I do believe it is linked to the throttle and flight controls somehow anyway. It actually seems to replace the control surfaces all together (which would allow manuvering in space...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Draco Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Just because there are no vertical fins, does not mean there is no yaw. After all, in the game, every single turn is perfectly coordinated, perhaps even with a little too much yaw input.Your idea about the G-diffuser makes sense, I do believe it is linked to the throttle and flight controls somehow anyway. It actually seems to replace the control surfaces all together (which would allow manuvering in space...).Well, then the G-Diffusers also serve a purpose as yaw control.But, in SF, we haven't been able to control the rudder at all, so it's really up in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursed Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Just because there are no vertical fins, does not mean there is no yaw. After all, in the game, every single turn is perfectly coordinated, perhaps even with a little too much yaw input.Your idea about the G-diffuser makes sense, I do believe it is linked to the throttle and flight controls somehow anyway. It actually seems to replace the control surfaces all together (which would allow manuvering in space...).B-2 Spirit bomberI also think the G-Diffuser stops inertia and creates artifical gravity within the arwing (hence the fact their not floating in their seats all the time even against the seat belts if they have them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Draco Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 B-2 Spirit bomberOh, and that too. How could I forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursed Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I also think the G-Diffuser stops inertia and creates artifical gravity within the arwing (hence the fact their not floating in their seats all the time even against the seat belts if they have them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Draco Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Maybe it some sort of electro-magnetic feild that also provides sheilding and, when a barrel roll is executed, reflect lasers/plasma blasts/*insert sci-fi projectile here*?At least, that seems plausible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursed Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Maybe it some sort of electro-magnetic feild that also provides sheilding and, when a barrel roll is executed, reflect lasers/plasma blasts/*insert sci-fi projectile here*?At least, that seems plausible...it could do that as well as create a gravitational field inside the arwing since it only deflects lasers I'd asssume it's eltro magnetic or somehow a mirror as most sci-fi lasers are either Ion blasters or actual light constructed lasers (like the high tech lasers of today) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePointingMan Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Maybe it some sort of electro-magnetic feild that also provides sheilding and, when a barrel roll is executed, reflect lasers/plasma blasts/*insert sci-fi projectile here*?At least, that seems plausible...Spot on, with the barrel roll stuff, Anyway, Starfox 64 section of the main site, click the official Nintendo of America link. http://web.archive.org/web/20011101000115/starfox64.com/arwing.htmlanyways, everything is done by manipulating gravity, well alot of it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursed Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Spot on, with the barrel roll stuff, Anyway, Starfox 64 section of the main site, click the official Nintendo of America link. http://web.archive.org/web/20011101000115/starfox64.com/arwing.htmlanyways, everything is done by manipulating gravity, well alot of it anyway.so then it does create a gravity field for the pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Draco Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nice, I knew I remembered that from somewhere... Explains the barrel rolling to get the stars from Command...Although the article says anti-gravity, scientifically, I really think the G-Diffuser is just a electro-magnetic feild generator that uses it's own magnetic feilds, and local magnetic feilds, to overcome gravity. This would be explainable within a planet's magnetosphere (the area around a planet where the magnetic feild covers), but in deep space, where there isn't any local magnetic activity, I don't see how this would work unless the G-Diffuser actually pulls and pushes diffrent sides of the ship up and down with the whole "opposite poles attract, similar poles repel" rule of magnetism.As you can see, I've studied this very much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursed Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Nice, I knew I remembered that from somewhere... Explains the barrel rolling to get the stars from Command...Although the article says anti-gravity, scientifically, I really think the G-Diffuser is just a electro-magnetic feild generator that uses it's own magnetic feilds, and local magnetic feilds, to overcome gravity. This would be explainable within a planet's magnetosphere (the area around a planet where the magnetic feild covers), but in deep space, where there isn't any local magnetic activity, I don't see how this would work unless the G-Diffuser actually pulls and pushes diffrent sides of the ship up and down with the whole "opposite poles attract, similar poles repel" rule of magnetism.As you can see, I've studied this very much...heres how i see it while providing a gravity field to stop inertia (so teh pilot doesn't bang his/her head on the console while crashing in space or into the ground) and creates artifical gravity in the cockpit. Second in the atmosphere it makes the ship lighter (Why they adjusted in assault to go into teh atmopshere) for hovering and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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