Homosexuality and SFO

[DZComposer]

Well, I was hoping that I would never ever have to make this kind of post, but in light of recent events, I do not think I can ignore this anymore. It has become an 800 lb. gorilla in the room. I see a rift forming in the community, and when rifts start to form, they need to be addressed. These rifts are even starting to form among the staff.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A PLACE TO VENT ABOUT THIS. I WANT CIVIL DISCUSSION, NOT ANGER.

Sadly, this is likely going to get nasty before we can have a solution. But, we need to have this discussion. If we don't, things will get nasty behind the scenes and rifts will form that will have a real possibility of shattering this community.

There are basically two camps:

One group is those who think homosexuality is either weird or wrong, and because of that they are either offended or creeped-out by homosexuality.

The other is those who think that homosexuality is natural, and that it is wrong to discriminate against it.

As you guys have probably seen by now, I fall into the later camp. I have had staff members who agree with the former camp threaten to leave over this (DO NOT ask me for names. If they want to come forward on their own, they will.).

I do not want to lose anyone over this, especially staff members. We're having a hard enough time filling the vacancies we have, we don't need more. That said, I do not want to create an environment where homosexual members feel that they are unwelcome here either. I also do not want to implement a "don't ask, don't tell" policy that forces homosexual members to stay in the closet.

Any solutions we come up with must be fair. I can't make a rule that says "don't depecit two characters of the same sex showing affection for each-other." Out of fairness, that would have to be expanded to ALL displays of affection, even between straight couples.

I am at a loss here. I have firm moral beliefs on this issue, and I know that there are people on the other side who have firm moral beliefs that contradict mine. Because of this, I fear that it is impossible to resolve this without hurting anybody's feelings. I hope that isn't true and that we can find a mutually acceptable solution.

Because I have zero clue at what to do next, I have decided to ask the community if you guys have any ideas.

So, Any ideas?

[Asper Sarnoff]

While I don't have an easy solution to the problem, I'd like to say that I'm glad we can accept that there is an issue here, and not just act like nothing's happening.

In case people are wondering, I'm firmly planted in the later camp DZ described. I'm anti-homphobic, and will gladly accept that there excists people with different taste than me, and that they are not in any way a lesser being for it.

[Kursed]

I'm offended by it but at the same time I'm not going to bring someone down about being one. So i can't really say anthing at the moment that would help.

If you could explain the issue further to me via pm perhaps I can help.

[Asper Sarnoff]

I'm offended by it but at the same time I'm not going to bring someone down about being one. So i can't really say anthing at the moment that would help.

If you could explain the issue further to me via pm perhaps I can help.

What do you mean?

[Kursed]

What do you mean?

I'm Offended by it ,but I'm not going to offend somebody who is Homosexual.

[Asper Sarnoff]

I'm Offended by it ,but I'm not going to offend somebody who is Homosexual.

But why do you need me to PM you about it? The problems we've encountered aren't to hard to see if you look around a little on the side.

[Kursed]

But why do you need me to PM you about it? The problems we've encountered aren't to hard to see if you look around a little on the side.

Due to 'issue's I've had with other members I've been avoiding alot of the discussions. and I was asking DZ not you. Sorry wrong quote button.

[Dermot]

I had no clue this was a serious issue. o.o I hope this isn't about something I've said or done...

Well, I'm gay.  I'm 100% gay.  I've always been gay, and I was gay the entire time I ran MouthOff and Papetoon.  And Foxbert, who ran the first Star Fox fan community I ever found, was openly bi.  (He was also my first boyfriend.)  The Star Fox fandom (especially before Krystal) had a very large gay base.  So we've been here a long time.  The Star Fox gay fandom is even bigger in Japan, and always has been.  Star Fox has two gay characters (Leon and Wolf).  Falco is ambiguous, but is also a magnet for gay fans.  And with Star Fox being furry, it's a magnet for gay people in general.  When I ran the old message boards, we really didn't put up with homophobia, since a memorable portion of the users there were gay or bi too.  DZ was a newbie on my board, who I remember as Double Zero, so I'm guessing he likely knows at least some of what I'm talking about.

So...I really don't see this as being all that big an issue now.  Gay and straight people are equal, and no one ought to have more or fewer privileges than the other in.  Gay, straight, bi, asexual - they're all ordinary.  There is no room for homophobia, no matter how subtle.  I know there's always going to be people who have issues with gay people, but we can all be good neighbors as long as we treat each other with respect.  Right?

[Kursed]

How about we just go as far as limiting Gay art? or is that too much?

[Asper Sarnoff]

How about we just go as far as limiting Gay art? or is that too much?

That is discrimination Kursed. No can do.

I had no clue this was a serious issue. o.o I hope this isn't about something I've said or done...

I'm afraid it is. As far as I know, and I do think I have quite a good gaydar, you're the only homosexual active person on the site.

I'll say one thing to you Dermot. I grew up in the countryside. Viking rednecks is what I'd call us, and absolutely everyone I knew in school was homophobic. I'm not, but I'm still a rough machomale. I scored far beyond the zone for normal masculine thinking in a test I took on how masculine/feminime your way of thinking was.

So, there'll naturally be a little sharp, rough edges on me, trough which I unintentionally can hurt you. If this does indeed happen, then I want you to know I never intended to do so.

Star Fox has two gay characters (Leon and Wolf).

Untill canonically proven otherwise, I'll go with them being straight. :)

[Dermot]

How about we just go as far as limiting Gay art? or is that too much?

Yes, it is too much.  Anything that treats gay people as unequal to straight people is unacceptable.  No exceptions.

So, there'll naturally be a little sharp, rough edges on me, trough which I unintentionally can hurt you. If this does indeed happen, then I want you to know I never intended to do so.

Untill canonically proven otherwise, I'll go with them being straight.

Well, I know at least one other person here, perhaps two.  I do admit that the balance seems to have shifted heavily to straight since Krystal.

And no, you haven't hurt me. :3 You seem fine.  And really?  I never thought of Norway as being a homophobic country.  They have gay marriage now.  But I guess that's too simplistic, as every country will have diverse segments of population with diverse segments of attitude.

Well, that depends on if their characterizations in Brawl are canon. :3 Leon outed himself when commenting with Panther, and Wolf's outfit very heavily invokes the Japanese "Hard Gay" stereotype.  But Leon in particular was scripted as flamboyantly gay in speech as far back as the Japanese script of Star Fox 64.

[Kursed]

Yes, it is too much.

You know i mean like art of gays not art from gays right ,but anyway Yeah i got nothing then.

[ndf]

How about we just go as far as limiting Gay art? or is that too much?

Uh. Yeah. It doesn't violate the image policy at all. If we get rid of that, maybe we should just ban the posting of all art in general.. :

[Dermot]

You know i mean like art of gays not art from gays right ,but anyway Yeah i got nothing then.

I understood what you meant the first time.  To be honest, I never actually pegged you as all that uncomfortable until now.  But I suppose it doesn't matter.  Everyone has their demons.  Honorable actions are what are important.

[Dermot]

YEah very funny now go back to your slop piggy.

Okay like I said I got nothing.

Really, it's okay.  You were honest with me when the time and place was important.  That's more than a lot of people do.

[Kursed]

Really, it's okay.  You were honest with me when the time and place was important.  That's more than a lot of people do.

I guess it kinda helped that my first impression of you was that you were straight.

[Dermot]

I guess it kinda helped that my first impression of you was that you were straight.

The truth is, most gay people are nothing like people expect them to be (if those people don't know any gay people to begin with, that is).  Most gay people are what is termed "Straight Gay", which means they are "straight-acting".  But it's not an "act" - it's just fairly average human behavior.  "Men are attractive.  Women are not."  That's gay, and it's as simple as that. :3 And there's not necessarily anything more or less sexual about it than being straight.  Lots of people are straight and know they're straight, and they don't need to necessarily prove it by picking up a girl in a bar.  Know what I mean?

[Matt Macdowel]

why the hate i may never know

but why to make big deal over little things in life?

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I'll be honest with you...

I recognize homosexuals' right to exist...I don't even mind the homoerotic fanart (especially girl on girl *drools*)

But...I just wish a certain someone wouldn't embed such BIG IMAGES, as they screen stretch, eat up RAM space or something like that, we had a problem like that before, and it slows down the forum, any large embedded image will do that.  Also, I find BIG IMAGES of Krystal scantily clad, but I wouldn't embed them in this forum, some people don't like to see Krystal that way (I'd just hyper link it), and if I embed a BIG IMAGE of it here, it's like I'm pushing it into their faces.  I feel that some of the homoerotic art embedded here is being pushed into my face by being so large.  It could just as easily be hyper linked, and you don't need to post a "Warning", as long as it isn't a toe over the image policy (containing [mild] nudity).  Again, I don't have anything against homosexuality or even homoerotic art, but I feel a *tad* uncomfortable about the large size.  If you're gay, and not ashamed of it, good for you. 

Be who you are, but...be cool about it, don't be too in your face with it towards everyone, that would be like me constantly telling everyone I'm a Goth, or always posting BIG IMAGES of Star Fox fan art depicting them as Goths, when I could just as easily hyper link them, or me constantly telling everyone I'm a Krystal lover, or always posting BIG IMAGES of Krystal fan art of her scantily clad, when I could just as easily hyper link them.

I know you're NOT doing it on purpose, i.e.  you're not trying to get attention or cause trouble, it's okay, just...uh..."use your indoor voice", so to speak...

I don't mean to offend ANYBODY, but I have to make my peace and speak my mind.

[Dermot]

why the hate i may never know

but why to make big deal over little things in life?

I would ask the same question.  But homophobia seems so common sometimes that I just filter it out as someone's dysfunctional bigotry.  I know better than to believe a single word they say.

I know you're NOT doing it on purpose, i.e.  you're not trying to get attention or cause trouble, it's okay, just...uh..."use your indoor voice", so to speak....

Huh, I'd never have guessed you felt this way. o.o Well, in honesty, I actually had been concerned with image size.  I'd been keeping individual images smaller than wallpaper size.  But if even that's too big, I might...choose a smaller maximum area size before thumbnailing or linking.

The oekaki collages (of small image file sizes that are each no bigger than 640x480) are fine, right?

Also...  ...homoerotic?  Did you think they were that homoerotic? o.o I mean, somewhat, maybe, but nothing compared to Krystal's straight-guy fanservice factor. X3

[DZComposer]

I do agree that the resolution of some of the images you've posted does test the limits of a lower-res monitor. It may be worth making sure what you're posting won't horizontally stretch a 1024x768 screen.

Anyhow, back on topic.

Firstly, this is no individual's fault. There's a lot of blame to go around. Even some for me. This issue was going to come up sooner or later, so no need for anyone to feel like this whole thing is their fault.

After a bit of a cool-down period, I am thinking of an amendment to the image policy as follows:

Any artwork that depicts a significant display of affection (kissing, etc.) is to be linked rather than embedded.

I think it is a reasonable compromise that doesn't eliminate any art, but makes it so that the only way you will see anything you don't want to is if you click on the link to the image.

Also, remember, any suggestions must be applicable to both "gay art" and "straight art." It has to be fair and not discriminatory.

As far as discussion of gay issues, I think our current rules regarding politics and religion suffice and do not need amendment.

[Steve]

I personally have nothing against homosexuality, I even have a good gay friend. However, and I can't deny this, I feel weird when I see pictures of homosexual affection, it's not hate, but it's outside the context I'm used to. I accept it, and know it's normal, however, I can't help but to feel uneasy as in how much "freedom" we can throw here. In one side, we would be  kinda like  "racists" if we ban gay pictures, but we will have other issues if we let this keep going. We certainly need balance, balance to make both parties happy. It's like religion, it's ok that you believe, as long as you don't over express such beliefs here.

Remember, don't fear what you don't know, because fear can lead to hate, instead, learn how to balance your own beliefs with other people's beliefs, in that way we will grow as a community.

[Asper Sarnoff]

I'd like to give another input regarding posting of images on the site.

It's not only the width on low-resolution monitors, but also the total size of a page with large images on a slow internet connection which can be a problem. There have been some pages wich have taken me around five minutes to load fully, and I think that's quite a far stretch. My internet connection at home is as fast as it's going to get in the foreseable future, and it's struggling when faced with the avalance of images some threads contain.

[Dermot]

I'd like to give another input regarding posting of images on the site.

It's not only the width on low-resolution monitors, but also the total size of a page with large images on a slow internet connection which can be a problem. There have been some pages wich have taken me around five minutes to load fully, and I think that's quite a far stretch. My internet connection at home is as fast as it's going to get in the foreseable future, and it's struggling when faced with the avalance of images some threads contain.

Good point.  Sounds like I should consider a reasonable thumbnailing option.

After a bit of a cool-down period, I am thinking of an amendment to the image policy as follows:

Any artwork that depicts a significant display of affection (kissing, etc.) is to be linked rather than embedded.

I'm not entirely sure.

This reminds me of when the government of the state of Utah was uncomfortable with gay-straight alliances in Utah public schools, but couldn't find a valid reason to ban them, so they instead banned all non-academic clubs.  Though the ban was theoretically equal, the motivation that led to the ban was driven by prejudice.  Eventually a court struck that down because the only reason they did that was to stop the gay-straight alliances.

If there genuinely is a general problem with kissing (no matter who's kissing who), I can appreciate that.  But if kissing is being hidden just because people don't like gay kissing but they don't care about straight kissing, then it sounds more like what I referenced above.

If that's true, it would seem more sensible just to not ban things, and foster an environment of tolerance and equal expression.  When people have had a prejudice that leads to them being uncomfortable, and the prejudice is certainly not something that can be supported, it doesn't serve justice to coddle the prejudice using broad restrictions that limit something else that wasn't controversial to begin with.  It serves justice to support and defend equal rights.

And, to be honest, it makes me very uncomfortable when someone is actually willing to sacrifice their own rights they would normally take for granted, just to prevent someone who makes them uncomfortable from practicing equivilent equal rights.

Imagine if someone wanted to post a picture of Fox and Krystal kissing, and they were told it's forbidden.  They would think it might be weird, and they would ask why.  You'd tell them it's a rule.  And they might ask why it's a rule.  Would you feel comfortable telling them why it became a rule?

As long as the decisions are motivated by any kind of prejudice or to appease someone else's unequal prejudice, then it will still be inherently offensive to LGBT people.  Because, believe me, I've heard every variation of this.  The cause is still transparent, and that's still belittling.  So no, it is not satisfactory, because it is not equal, because the restrictive terms are being decided by people uncomfortable enough to sacrifice their own rights to superficially appear equal.  People will just have to learn to live with the reality their own prejudices bring them when they have to coexist with a gay person.  As long as equality is real, there is no way around that.  And if someone's own prejudice ends up making them miserable for failing to transcend, then that's just how it ends up being - it's their problem, not mine.

At least, that's my take on this concept.

Do people realize just how fanservicy Krystal is all the time?  And how annoying that can be to a gay person? X3 But it's nothing to complain about, because it's an equal right, and I support it.  Because there's just no way there would be a ban on Krystal's figure, when it is typically portrayed so much more graphic than anything I would post.

[Guest DRL]

I generally do not mind homsexsual

people. I admit that I do not... 'apreciate'

the homosexual art as much as they do,

but that is mostly personall preference,

and in no way I am offended by it.

I mean, from my perpective, I find girls

attractive, but I do not mind if any of my

male classmates finds boys attractive -

all I ask of them is that we respect each other.

I have to say that

I look as male homosexuality in the same way

I look to female homosexuality, and I do not find

two girls kissing each other attractive at all.

That in no way means that I feel offended by it,

nor that I find it 'inapropiate' - they are free to do

it, after all.

In fact, I actively discourage racial/sexual hating

and I like homphomes as much as I like machists and

fememinists... And we have to consider that I do NOT

like them at all.

As for images, well, we could leave them be.

I really do not mind Falco and Bill kissing, nor

I do mind Katt and Krystal kissing. In the same vein,

I do not find either interesting/attractive,

but that is my own choice, and your choice is so,

yours.