Your take on: Wolf O'Donnell

[Dermot]

What he's saying is that Wolf is designed to be appealing, but this does not inherently make him "gay", because he appeals to the female demogrpahic too.

Yeah.  Yaoi fangirls.

[Robert Monroe]

Yeah.  Yaoi fangirls.

Every male in existence appeals to those.

Even General Pepper. I've seen it.

I know plenty of girls who want to jump Wolf's bone.

[Dermot]

You have to realize.  Most Japanese gay characters are not designed to appeal to gay men.  They're designed to appeal to women - especially if they're romancing other guys.  So Wolf being gay actually advances his appeal to women.

[Milkyway64]

You have to realize.  Most Japanese gay characters are not designed to appeal to gay men.  They're designed to appeal to women - especially if they're romancing other guys.  So Wolf being gay actually advances his appeal to women.

Which again goes back to that there is no evidence and you're just speculating.

Remember that this is Nintendo and StarFox. Any hidden "depth" to read into is likely your imagination and generally I think it'd try to avoid controversy more than Krystal's already given it. This goes with all of your posts, which combined says that the entire cast is gay.

[Samantha Weltzin]

Well, Samantha let me put it this way. I said that because it has already been touched upon. Aside from the fact the he looked stupid (like how he looked shorter to me, his head like Fox's looked like a bell) like everyone else in Command, he came off like somewhat stereotypical jerk type as DRL well described here: http://forums.starfox-online.net/index.php?topic=6306.0

Well the way a character looks doesn't really matter, since they'll obviously just change again (Fox went from a puppy to a frog to Mr. T to Donkey Kong to a bell-head).

I guess I just didn't see him as a stereotypical jerk in Command any more than he usually is. He still seemed to show some depth in that game. Perhaps it's just a matter of perception.

Still, thanks for explaining what you meant.

[Dermot]

Which again goes back to that there is no evidence and you're just speculating.

Remember that this is Nintendo and StarFox. Any hidden "depth" to read into is likely your imagination and generally I think it'd try to avoid controversy more than Krystal's already given it. This goes with all of your posts, which combined says that the entire cast is gay.

They're not all gay.  Fox is bi.  James and Peppy may have been bi.  Panther is probably bi.  Slippy's straight, for sure.  Besides, there was interest in this even before Krystal was introduced.  This is older than Krystal - in fact, Krystal's introduction pissed off a lot of people. XD

The evidence is pretty heavy, but it's just not very apparent through an American or generally Western cultural lens.  Scripts were altered too.  Nintendo wanted to make sure that its games were as marketable in foreign markets as possible, and that meant making alterations to their characters and their words.

Besides, Star Fox wouldn't be the first Nintendo game with a canonically LGBT character, but that character was rescripted in English to make him seem female.  It just doesn't have the stigma or controversy in Japan that it has here.  Gay characters are kid-friendly.  If you're Japanese.  In the West, they had to walk on eggshells around the culture wherever they localized a product.

Anyway, this is not really quite a matter of canon.  It is a matter of common wisdom.  The locale of creation tends to get dibs on this.

[Milkyway64]

They're not all gay.  Fox is bi.  James and Peppy may have been bi.  Panther is probably bi.  Slippy's straight, for sure.  Besides, there was interest in this even before Krystal was introduced.  This is older than Krystal - in fact, Krystal's introduction pissed off a lot of people. XD

The evidence is pretty heavy, but it's just not very apparent through an American or generally Western cultural lens.  Scripts were altered too.  Nintendo wanted to make sure that its games were as marketable in foreign markets as possible, and that meant making alterations to their characters and their words.

I'm requesting the evidence. You keep saying Japan (which is now 95% homosexual I guess) has all this evidence without actually showing any of it.

Also, Using words like "may" and "probably" means you're speculating and turning the characters into your own visualization of them, much like the Krystal fandom has done to her since day one.

["User"]

I'm requesting the evidence. You keep saying Japan (which is now 95% homosexual I guess) has all this evidence without actually showing any of it.

Also, Using words like "may" and "probably" means you're speculating and turning the characters into your own visualization of them, much like the Krystal fandom has done to her since day one.

I already talked to him about this, his entire "evidence" is based purely on Japanese culture and hence nothing is canon. 

[Dermot]

I already talked to him about this, his entire "evidence" is based purely on Japanese culture and hence nothing is canon.

Japanese culture speaks volumes about this.

[Milkyway64]

Japanese culture speaks volumes about this.

Stop SAYING it. Your WORD has absolutely no meaning or credibility behind it. How about some stats? Official words? Something other than just "They all share my sexuality because I say so."

["User"]

Japanese culture speaks volumes about this.

And once again...for the umpteenth time...that's not a reliable source, nor is it canon.  Furthermore all we seem to have is your word for this.  Have you actually lived in Japan and got to experience this first hand or do you just expect us to believe you based off what you've seen in anime and all that?  Milky and I requested evidence...not just cultural talk >_>

Tell ya what, I have friends at my work place who spent years in Japan and only arrived here in the last few years - they are quite avid gamers as well.  I'll ask them for their opinion on what you've told me among the so called blatantly obvious sexual preferences/culture etc in that country concerning Star Fox. Heck I'll even show them the chat logs I've had with you.  If their views coincide with yours to a great extent than I'll admit that your opinion has some merit.  Until then I'm going to abstain from participating in this conversation any further.

[Samantha Weltzin]

Although I lean more toward the "Everyone's asexual because they have no genitalia" camp (there is precedent for this, and it lies up Krystal's skirt), I'd like to jump in and see if I have the right take on Dermot's stance.

See, the way I see it, you (Dermot) are saying that there is precedent in Japanese popular culture for the characters to be the way they are because, in the end, they are basically all stock characters with no development, so if we were to comment on their sexuality at all, these would be the logical conclusions since the games were made in Japan. Is that correct?

[Milkyway64]

Although I lean more toward the "Everyone's asexual because they have no genitalia" camp (there is precedent for this, and it lies up Krystal's skirt)

No, that's because Rare didn't feel they had to render a vagina...

Even further, explain Marcus, or Slippy's kids, or how James is a father to Fox.

[Samantha Weltzin]

No, that's because Rare didn't feel they had to render a vagina...

Even further, explain Marcus, or Slippy's kids, or how James is a father to Fox.

You're striking my "silly nerve" again, but okay. I'll explain it.

It's the ideal Christian universe, where children are not born through sex, but through marriage. James was married to Vixy. Peppy was married to Vivian. Fox was married to Krystal.

THERE IS PRECEDENT, DANGIT!

[Kursed]

uhh amen?

[Robert Monroe]

You're striking my "silly nerve" again, but okay. I'll explain it.

It's the ideal Christian universe, where children are not born through sex, but through marriage. James was married to Vixy. Peppy was married to Vivian. Fox was married to Krystal.

THERE IS PRECEDENT, DANGIT!

How is this ideally Christian as a Christian I am cofused 

But seriously. Everyone knows the thing up Krystal's skirt is a g-string.

[Dermot]

Anyway, it wasn't wild speculation, nor was it an oversimplification of Japanese culture, nor was it a matter of "everyone's gay because I am".  I just thought it might help shed some light on stuff.  And I never specifically said that James or Peppy definitely are bi - that was certainly speculation on my part.

I think a part of this is fundamental perception.  You ask ten different people to describe a certain situation, and they could easily come up with ten different answers and they wouldn't be lying even if their accounts conflict.  One of the ten might not even be aware that even one of the other nine saw things differently, because their original perception may be rock solid.

You're right, it's not canonically establishable as an empirical fact that Wolf is gay.  Or that Fox is bi.  Or that Krystal's boobs are real.  Or that Katt is female.  I believe Katt is actually female, but if she turned out to be a transgender, it wouldn't necessarily upset my understanding of the observable universe.

Most of us go on first, second or third impressions.  We give things thought, but many of us go by our common wisdom.  It no doubt colors our perceptions in an inescapable way, which is why one human can be such an uneliable witness.  But we tend to take it for granted anyway, because we can only perceive the universe the way we can observe it.

The perception and common wisdom of a gay man can vary considerably from a straight man.  There are things we see sometimes that are self-evident and plain as day that may not be evident to a lot of other people, but are often correct based on the sum of life's experiences.  One of these is "gaydar" - people may joke about gaydar, but it really is simply a colloquial term for one part of the accumulated common wisdom of a certain life experience.  Common wisdoms like these are what make the critical difference between what is believable and what cannot be taken seriously.  When Ricky Martin came out of the closet, why do you think it was that no one in the gay community was the least bit surprised, even though there had been no concrete proof until then?  It's something called a "transparent closet", where someone doesn't have to say they're gay - it's just written all over everything they do.

True, even gaydar can be imperfect.  Where it can overgeneralize, it's called a "lavender lens".  Like if someone were to go as far as to say Slippy is gay.  See, I wouldn't really find that credible - it would take a thick lavender lens to think that.

In this case, I have my senses, and I have my wisdom.  Since I alone cannot be a reliable witness, it is backed up with my own friends finding it just as plainly self-evident as me.  Granted, most of my friends are gay or bi, but I asked several straight friends just to be sure.

And this is still not canon - it may be just really plausible fanon.  But at what point do we simply stop trusting our senses and our common wisdom?  Because, to me, this wasn't necessarily about what was solid established canon.  The only canonically gay character is Leon.  But are we not allowed our honest strongest perceptions to be taken as a serious probability?  Wild speculation would be "I think the sky may be green today, but I haven't really checked."  This is far from anything like that.  I won't call it canon.  But I also won't call it a fabrication.

[Vy'drach]

What exactly about Leon do you find gay, what I've heard you mention is where he let his masochistic streak through in one of the Brawl easter eggs.

[Dermot]

What exactly about Leon do you find gay, what I've heard you mention is where he let his masochistic streak through in one of the Brawl easter eggs.

He was very lustful for Wolf in that easter egg.  It's hard to see how anyone could have possibly missed that.  It was quite heavy.  If he had ever been in the closet before then, he wasn't anymore.

We need more girls and openly gay guys on this site.  Really. XD Until then, FoXXX is bi.  And I know another bi user on this site who doesn't wish to be identified.  And the only user I know of who is verifiably female is Sissi, but I don't know her.

[Vy'drach]

It's been a while since I've seen the Easter egg, but I don't remember getting the impression of lust. I got the sense of being envious of Wolf's claws, what with Leon's established sadistic streak, and Panther calling in to question whether he was jealous of Wolf's claws, or being shredded by them, hinting at possibly being a masochist.

Either way though, that is Brawl, which is hardly the source for canon Star Fox material. If it was, then all the SF characters would be able to breathe in space, and the Mushroom Kingdom would obviously be a planet in a portion of the Lylat system.

[Dermot]

It's been a while since I've seen the Easter egg, but I don't remember getting the impression of lust. I got the sense of being envious of Wolf's claws, what with Leon's established sadistic streak, and Panther calling in to question whether he was jealous of Wolf's claws, or being shredded by them, hinting at possibly being a masochist.

Either way though, that is Brawl, which is hardly the source for canon Star Fox material. If it was, then all the SF characters would be able to breathe in space, and the Mushroom Kingdom would obviously be a planet in a portion of the Lylat system.

Well, I know its setting is not canon.  But I had no reason to believe its personality characterizations were non-canon.

[Vy'drach]

None of the characters seemed to have the same personalities as before, as I'd love to see Diddy Kong try and drag away a personality correct Fox or Falco. Can't be completely sure about Fox, but I highly doubt that Falco would let the little monkey drag him away without a fight.

[Samantha Weltzin]

Leon: "Star Wolf is really giving his all there. I'm really envious of him. Those razor-sharp claws! Those keen fangs! He moves wildly and fights with the spirit of a warrior possessed! Any prey he sets sight on is doomed to be shredded to pieces! "

Panther: "Um Leon? Are you feeling alright?"

Leon: "Yes of course! Fine. Just fine. Haa ha haaaaa ha haaahaaa...

Panther: Set me straight, Leon. Are you envious of the shred-DER or the shred-DEE?"

There's the transcript. Draw your own conclusions.

[Vy'drach]

Leon: "Star Wolf is really giving his all there. I'm really envious of him. Those razor-sharp claws! Those keen fangs! He moves wildly and fights with the spirit of a warrior possessed! Any prey he sets sight on is doomed to be shredded to pieces! "

Panther: "Um Leon? Are you feeling alright?"

Leon: "Yes of course! Fine. Just fine. Haa ha haaaaa ha haaahaaa...

Panther: Set me straight, Leon. Are you envious of the shred-DER or the shred-DEE?"

There's the transcript. Draw your own conclusions.

I don't find that lustful, maybe a bit obsessed, but not lustful. Seems like a mentally deranged variant of Raven's speech to Solid Snake.

[Dermot]

Yes, that would be the one.

Anyway, if even that was not self-evident, then nothing is self-evident, anywhere, ever. It can be difficult talking about these things with people who are prone to assume everyone is straight unless otherwise noted.  I'm a post-heteronormative, and I see everyone's orientation as undefined until the details are gradually filled in.  I mean, some people are very obviously reliably straight.  But if one assumes everyone is straight, how can one take one's own perceptions seriously?  Because it's Nintendo?  Because kids are in the audience?  Because one may be located in the United States and make assumptions based on United States expectations?  I'm not an "everyone is gay" person arguing the opposite.  I'm saying it's a lot more complicated than that, on a character-by-character basis.

Did you know that Birdo is (and always has been) a guy?  And that Peach made Mario and Bowser kiss each other?

And Metal Gear Solid has its own long-standing issues of homoeroticism. Just look at the top picture of Even The Guys Want Him at tvtropes.