DO we need develpoed characters?

[Thu'um]

Its easy to say the characters in star fox arn't to overly developed. But I've been wondering do we really need charcter depth? i have decided that i really don't want a developed cast in star fox, they simply don't need be like real people.and if the game started revolving to much around plot . Now of course some of the bipoloaries of the charcters need to stop ( fox's personality) But a star fox game based on plot (command) is....

oppions? i know your all full of them.

[Vulvokunvrii]

Well i think we should have slightly developed characters so at least we know about them. Like where so an dso come from, what made he/she like this? and so on. I just think we nee dmor eback story.

[Thu'um]

Well i think we should have slightly developed characters so at least we know about them. Like where so an dso come from, what made he/she like this? and so on. I just think we nee dmor eback story.

i pretty much like how the charcters are nao, more back story doesn't change who they are so that fine aslong it doesn't make them any diffrent. Like it be bad if we found out slippy used to be a player, or some back story the completly changes the charcters we know, and could reck the series worse then command

[Xortberg]

But a star fox game based on plot (command) is....

Command is a bad example because it was poorly done. Using it as evidence that SF can't do plot at all is just dumb, since all the good SF fanfiction out there proves that it can be done.

As for me, I definitely think we should have more development. Most of the characters have all kinds of potential, including Krystal, to be hella interesting if developed properly. Fox has daddy issues and a rivalry with Falco, Falco has a troubled past or something like that, Peppy is a seasoned veteran, Krystal is the last survivor of her race...

All of this stuff gives plenty of room to interpret and develop, and Nintendo really should try to pull it off.

[Psygonis]

Xortberg> "all the good SF fanfiction out there proves that it can be done" Not quite... That proves, the SF universe allows good stories to be written. Writing a book and rythme a game are two (very) different things!

But you are right. All the characters have a good potential for background. I do think though, that Starfox games should not be centered around such stories. It takes space, reduce the flexibility of the flow... Starfox games are meant to be fast-paced, that's a fact. They are doing missions, not quests.

However, giving bits of background elements here and there, more than currently done would be nice of course. Depth is a cautious thing to add in a game storyline, elements to make it more alive and convincing are not. That's what may be needed to improve the universe.

[Xortberg]

Xortberg> "all the good SF fanfiction out there proves that it can be done" Not quite... That proves, the SF universe allows good stories to be written. Writing a book and rythme a game are two (very) different things!

I write a lot myself, so I know that there are differences in stories and games. But the fanfiction proves that the universe has the potential for a good plot, so long as the characters get developed well and the writers are competent. Any game can have a good plot attached to it, so long as the universe has the potential, and the SF universe definitely does.

But you are right. All the characters have a good potential for background. I do think though, that Starfox games should not be centered around such stories. It takes space, reduce the flexibility of the flow... Starfox games are meant to be fast-paced, that's a fact. They are doing missions, not quests.

Of course it shouldn't become overburdened with plot. Very few games can pull that off, much less an action-oriented space shooter. But that's also not a free pass to just say "Here, shoot some ships while we don't develop the characters." During the missions, the characters can develop and show their bonds, and every game has had an overarching plotline which allows plenty of room to work with.

[Lord Asriel]

But that's also not a free pass to just say "Here, shoot some ships while we don't develop the characters."

Errr, well hell yes it is.

I didn't give a crap Slippy had a dad while the Area 6 towers went "Bo-BOOM Bo-BOOM Bo-BOOM".

Nintendo's main licenses were never made to be very deep anyway, and they'll never be, and as far as they are clear with that, I don't mind.

[Scott7]

To be honest, I think it's the only option we're ever going to get from Nintendo. Me and a friend recently did a bit of snooping around in the file directories of one of the games and found alot of content that was never actually used, alot of which could've made the game alot better in both story depth and game-play.

After listening to the scene audio files, and getting the impression that Nintendo purposely held the writers back, I've pretty much lost hope of the character's actually getting developed or an actual good game coming out anytime soon.

[Redeemer]

I think it's important to have developed characters, otherwise the plot just isn't as believable. And if we don't have developed characters, look what happens i.e Krystal.

Non-developed characters just annoy me. It's like they get in the way of everything else, and they're just there to look pretty or fill a space.

[Prince Elite]

Some can be developed more than others, but if there's no continuance, if Command was the end, then there's no need

[Lord Asriel]

Yeah, we also need a detailed description of the childhood of every enemy pilot we shot down. Clear fact.

[Xortberg]

Yeah, we also need a detailed description of the childhood of every enemy pilot we shot down. Clear fact.

[kkstarfox]

Yeah, we also need a detailed description of the childhood of every enemy pilot we shot down. Clear fact.

Because the main character is every character, eh? Interesting... No not ever damn character needs a back drop, but ever important character needs a personality. And some characters in the SF universe lack that, look what they did with Krystal in Assault... They made her psychic? WTF? really? Where did that come from? I for one would like a little more back story on Andross, why the heck is he so angry/ demented? Like others have said, there is a lot of potential but not much happening. Nintendo is natorius for that it seems. Just look at Mario, there is no back story what so ever. I think the only game made by Nintendo with an extensive story is the Legend of Zelda series. Possibly Metroid too. IDK. My point being Star Fox could really use more character, and less fuck ups.

[Thu'um]

I think it's important to have developed characters, otherwise the plot just isn't as believable. And if we don't have developed characters, look what happens i.e Krystal.

Non-developed characters just annoy me. It's like they get in the way of everything else, and they're just there to look pretty or fill a space.

which intreguies me, fox isn't very devloped does he bother you? i think the only reason really get on krystals case is because to many people like star fox for her, she no less fanatastic then fox or more so.

[Guest Mr. Nintendo]

I for one get annoyed when I play a game that does not have any developed characters. I want to know their past, I want to know more about their parents...(*Cough*James*Cough*)

And I wouldn't be certain Nintendo ALWAYS does characters that aren't over-developed, there is quite a few out there that have been well-developed. (For the sake of derailing, I'm not going to go changing the subject.

[Redeemer]

which intreguies me, fox isn't very devloped does he bother you? i think the only reason really get on krystals case is because to many people like star fox for her, she no less fanatastic then fox or more so.

See, I feel the same way about Fox as I do about Krystal. They both have potential, but until then I don't really mind them all that much.

[Lord Asriel]

I want to know their past, I want to know more about their parents...(*Cough*James*Cough*)

Wow, really ?

In most of the games we don't know a crap about character's past. Even in Final Fantasy, we don't know anything about most characters, and yet there's hours of chat. What matters is what is relevant to the game.

[Zzz]

Yeah, no... we don't NEED "developed characters", I'd say.

A Star Fox game can work without all too complex individuals, however I would prefer if we would have complex and developed protagonists.

Since I'm usually all for franchise-evolutions, I would love to see something more character-based in the Star Fox universe.

We have such potential with characters like Andrew and Pigma. I already touched upon why they are interesting characters.

But there's also, Fox!

I mean, compared to other Nintendo-heroes, Fox is one of the few guys who has the potential of becoming a very dynamic hero.

Think back to Mario or Link. Both have very little personality so YOU, as the player, can project yourself more easily into their roles.

The sole fact that there's this thin line between his job and his personal matters with Andross and everything is pretty damn exciting when done right!

Which is one of the reasons why I think Star Fox is the most cinematic franchise from Nintendo.

[Drasiana]

which intreguies me, fox isn't very devloped does he bother you? i think the only reason really get on krystals case is because to many people like star fox for her, she no less fanatastic then fox or more so.

Fox is developed. His father died, he wanted to live up to his legacy by helming the new Star Fox and defeating Andross. He did. That is an arc. The setup with James is paid off (disregarding the bizarre Ghost James deus ex machina the games like to obsessively use).

Krystal has all this backstory that is never once paid off. Her story arc is forgotten about. This is what makes her less fantastic than Fox. While Fox's story was much simpler, it completed.

These characters do not in any way need to have novels written about their history or deep, profound psychological and philosophical quanderies. But, if you are going to build them a personality and put them into a plot that involves the actions of characters, there does need to be a progression from point A to B to justify the time dwelled on their story.

Games like Mario can get away without much character development because the story isn't as important as flying around doing goofy stuff and collecting coins and stars. There are no setups to anything deep or profound, so we don't come to expect that. It's very simplistic. Star Fox, however, differs in that it DOES give us the setups to these characters, it DOES hint at relationships between characters and springboards to mysteries we want to solve. But the problem is, the game never goes anywhere with these.

"Oh, Krystal's planet was destroyed? She's seeking answers as to why? Cool! I wonder what's going to happen!"

Nothing. Nothing at all.

But the games WANT us to become attached to these characters and their relationships. They WANT us to see them as realistic. But they try to force us to, rather than allow us to, and never give us an adequate enough reason for following the relationships and plot threads that we do. We're supposed to believe Fox and Krystal are a couple who are IN LOOOOVE~ but we never even see them kiss, or say "I love you" for the first time.

The misconception about character development is that it necessitates knowing everything about a character since their birth, but that is not the case. While Krystal needs the backstory because the first time we ever SEE her explicitly states that it's important, and we need to know Fox and Wolf's history to justify their rivalry, not everyone else does. Leon and Panther for example don't need a fullblown history with childhood details, but we do need to know their roles. We know Leon as "weird assassin guy I guess" and Panther as "that guy that hits on Krystal" but we don't know what function they have on their team or within the story (excluding Panther in Command though he still wasn't proactive); they're just kind of there, and can be exchanged for any other punks in space suits. What we want to know is WHY you can't swap them out: why it HAS to be Leon and Panther in the positions they are in. Otherwise their characters are superfluous and not as important as they may be set up to be.

[Thu'um]

Fox is developed. His father died, he wanted to live up to his legacy by helming the new Star Fox and defeating Andross. He did. That is an arc. The setup with James is paid off (disregarding the bizarre Ghost James deus ex machina the games like to obsessively use).

Krystal has all this backstory that is never once paid off. Her story arc is forgotten about. This is what makes her less fantastic than Fox. While Fox's story was much simpler, it completed.

These characters do not in any way need to have novels written about their history or deep, profound psychological and philosophical quanderies. But, if you are going to build them a personality and put them into a plot that involves the actions of characters, there does need to be a progression from point A to B to justify the time dwelled on their story.

Games like Mario can get away without much character development because the story isn't as important as flying around doing goofy stuff and collecting coins and stars. There are no setups to anything deep or profound, so we don't come to expect that. It's very simplistic. Star Fox, however, differs in that it DOES give us the setups to these characters, it DOES hint at relationships between characters and springboards to mysteries we want to solve. But the problem is, the game never goes anywhere with these.

"Oh, Krystal's planet was destroyed? She's seeking answers as to why? Cool! I wonder what's going to happen!"

Nothing. Nothing at all.

But the games WANT us to become attached to these characters and their relationships. They WANT us to see them as realistic. But they try to force us to, rather than allow us to, and never give us an adequate enough reason for following the relationships and plot threads that we do. We're supposed to believe Fox and Krystal are a couple who are IN LOOOOVE~ but we never even see them kiss, or say "I love you" for the first time.

The misconception about character development is that it necessitates knowing everything about a character since their birth, but that is not the case. While Krystal needs the backstory because the first time we ever SEE her explicitly states that it's important, and we need to know Fox and Wolf's history to justify their rivalry, not everyone else does. Leon and Panther for example don't need a fullblown history with childhood details, but we do need to know their roles. We know Leon as "weird assassin guy I guess" and Panther as "that guy that hits on Krystal" but we don't know what function they have on their team or within the story (excluding Panther in Command though he still wasn't proactive); they're just kind of there, and can be exchanged for any other punks in space suits. What we want to know is WHY you can't swap them out: why it HAS to be Leon and Panther in the positions they are in. Otherwise their characters are superfluous and not as important as they may be set up to be.

I beilive we are confuesing develope ment on this thread, fox has an ok back story, but does that give him a persoanlity. But krystal has no back story, and her charcter seems equaly flavorless see what i mean. back story is interesting but it doesn't do much for ingame character.

[Drasiana]

I beilive we are confuesing develope ment on this thread, fox has an ok back story, but does that give him a persoanlity. But krystal has no back story, and her charcter seems equaly flavorless see what i mean. back story is interesting but it doesn't do much for ingame character.

lol

no

*I* am not confusing the meaning of character development, bucko. Can you clarify what YOU'RE trying to say? Because all I'm seeing is "no you're wrong backstory and personality have nothing to do with your character".

By the way, specific personality in of itself is not the same thing as character development. "Development" is the keyword here.

[Thu'um]

lol

no

*I* am not confusing the meaning of character development, bucko. Can you clarify what YOU'RE trying to say? Because all I'm seeing is "no you're wrong backstory and personality have nothing to do with your character".

By the way, specific personality in of itself is not the same thing as character development. "Development" is the keyword here.

your right but i'm right too. A back story helps devlop a charcter, but it doesn't really change the charcter at all or provide an information. If we found out falco was in a biker gang it changes nothing from the falco we already know. SO fox's charcter is at the same level in terms of personality as krystal, the fact his father died doesn't add a speck of charcter to him.

[Drasiana]

Wow okay no.

A back story helps devlop a charcter,

but it doesn't really change the charcter at all or provide an information.

That is so directly contradictory. "Backstory doesn't provide information"? That's all backstory DOES.

If we found out falco was in a biker gang it changes nothing from the falco we already know.

Except it gives a reason for his harshness, his lone-wolf attitude and explains his affiliation with Katt.

SO fox's charcter is at the same level in terms of personality as krystal, the fact his father died doesn't add a speck of charcter to him.

That's just a flat-out lie.

If James hadn't died, Fox would not have followed in his footsteps as the leader of Star Fox. James' death drove Fox to be who he is now. Peppy's encouragement only solidifies the fact that Fox is on this journey because he wants to be as great as his dad, and James' cropping up in later games only enunciates this.

Without this backstory, the game as we know it would not exist.

[Thu'um]

Wow okay no.

That is so directly contradictory. "Backstory doesn't provide information"? That's all backstory DOES.

Except it gives a reason for his harshness, his lone-wolf attitude and explains his affiliation with Katt.

That's just a flat-out lie.

If James hadn't died, Fox would not have followed in his footsteps as the leader of Star Fox. James' death drove Fox to be who he is now. Peppy's encouragement only solidifies the fact that Fox is on this journey because he wants to be as great as his dad, and James' cropping up in later games only enunciates this.

Without this backstory, the game as we know it would not exist.

you misread my psot and warp them, personality and back story are to elements of charcter, a fact! However, back story changes almost nothing about personality, Personality is the word not information :mellow: . Falco is bad boy we already know this, the fact that he was in a gang changes nothing about that, and his affiliation with katt is not peronality at all!!

"That's just a flat-out lie.

If James hadn't died, Fox would not have followed in his footsteps as the leader of Star Fox. James' death drove Fox to be who he is now. Peppy's encouragement only solidifies the fact that Fox is on this journey because he wants to be as great as his dad, and James' cropping up in later games only enunciates this."

He inherted star fox from his father and went for vengence against andross. there is no mention of him wanting to be his father. And if he is so develped by this back story why is he a firey young man in 64, a joker and money based person in adventrues and a rock in assualt.

[Drasiana]

you misread my psot and warp them,

Does it really baffle you that people might not get what you're trying to say given the way you type?

However, back story changes almost nothing about personality, Personality is the word not information

Ugh. Okay.

Say you're a kid, long ago. You are very young, when BAM. Your parents die in a horrific bake sale accident. You are shipped around to bad foster home to bad foster home, and have to learn to care for yourself. This makes you a fiercely independant person, and you only look out for yourself.

And you also have a deep-seated hatred for baked goods.

That is a personality trait directly corresponding with backstory. If you think "personality is the word", by which I *think* you mean "simple adjectives people tack onto their RP character", then you are doing it wrong.

Falco is bad boy we already know this, the fact that he was in a gang changes nothing about that, and his affiliation with katt is not peronality at all!!

The way characters interact with each other stems from their personality. It also gives them common ground. Did you just say the fact that "Falco is a bad boy" has nothing to do with the fact that he was in a gang? Really? Have you tried saying that out loud to yourself?

He inherted star fox from his father and went for vengence against andross. there is no mention of him wanting to be his father. And if he is so develped by this back story why is he a firey young man in 64, a joker and money based person in adventrues and a rock in assualt.

"You will die, just like your father!"

"You'll be seeing your dad soon, Fox."

"Follow your father's example, Fox."

"Your father helped me like that, too."

"This brings back memories of your dad."

"Too bad dad's not here to see ya fail!"

"Ah, the son of James McCloud."

"Don't ever give up, my son."

"You're becoming more like your father."

And of course,

"You've become so strong, Fox."

~JAMES

Yeah clearly James has absolutely nothing to do with the story and is a complete nonfactor in Fox's journey. Him donning James' glasses for the expert run isn't indicative of his character either.

You are completely confusing the definitions of DEVELOPMENT, BACKSTORY, PERSONALITY, and CHARACTER ARC, and neglecting to acknowledge that they are related, albeit seperate concepts. Let's break it down for you.

develop

- 5 dictionary results

de·vel·op

   [dih-vel-uhp]

to grow into a more mature or advanced state; advance;

This goes back to what I was saying about moving from point A to B. It's a progression. Proof of your character being dynamic. Though Fox's pendulous personality IS a problem, I am considering the games seperately from one another for the sake of this discussion. You can have a character progression no matter what their personality is. Dick Mercenary!Fox could have an arc in the same way that Boring Do-Gooder!Fox can have an arc. Just because his personality is wildly different without reason through the games does not mean that, at some point, he has not undergone some intentional, sensible change.

I use Star Fox 64 as an example because it is the simplest, yet best, example of a character progression in the series. It goes like this.

Fox hasn't lived up to father's legacy ---> Fox has lived up to father's legacy

No head-spinningly profound message or twist there. But it's movement. It's a change in the character. It is, by very definition, character development.

Now, let's look at Krystal, who you say is in exactly the same boat as Fox.

Krystal doesn't know why her planet was destroyed ---> Krystal doesn't know why her planet was destroyed.

Hmm. See what I'm saying?