The Mary Sue Litmus Test

[Geo Stelar]

took the test again. 55.

[unoservix]

it's worth pointing out the deep-seated sexism that seems to be inherent in the whole concept of Mary Sues

 

it's also worth pointing out that while you might use "Mary Sue" as some catch-all term for an assortment of grating and obnoxious tropes that make your story suck, you don't really have to, and you can in fact talk about all those aggravating story-suck-making tropes if the fanfic you're reading blows over the rules of the established story just for the sake of making the whole thing be about a thinly-veiled self-insert character, you don't need to resort to gendered language with implicitly misogynist assumptions to get your point across. it's something you can improve, as i hope to do (since that post itself is evidence that i need to do so)

 

then again, that Mary Sue litmus test is itself evidence that the entire term "Mary Sue" has degenerated to utter uselessness. take a look at the different categories of things that make you "Mary Sue-ish," and then either

 

a) compare them to each other, and see how contradictory opposites will both make your character score higher; apparently the test's idea of the non-Mary Sue is the person who strikes some impossible balance of flaws and strengths and pity and perseverance and power and weakness and so on

 

or b) take well-known, even culturally iconic characters that many people recognize to have complex, compelling characterizations (e.g. Batman, Mara Jade, Michael Bluth, Mulan, Spock) and see how they do in the Mary Sue litmus test.

 

by now, the borders of what makes some character a Mary Sue have expanded so far that they encompass everything, and so the concept is useless.

[ballisticwaffles]

To be fair, the technical term for a male Mary sue is Marty Stu, Gary Stu, and holy crap i remember that.

[Arashikage]

I'm not sure how the term Mary Sue has some sort of sexism tied to it though.  The term is such because of a fanfiction about Star Trek, with a character named Mary Sue.  The author wrote it to parody the common self insert fiction about Star Trek that was so common.  That's why I use the term Mary Sue as a gender neutral term to describe a self insert character in a fiction such as that.

[unoservix]

well, the fact that "Mary Sue" is a generally female name is a good place to start. it's hard to call it "gender neutral" if the very language you use is inherently gendered.

 

so why do we automatically cast this prototypical obnoxious badly-written wish fulfillment character as a female, even when we're actually meaning to talk about males?

[russiandog38]

My character got a score of 5. Don't know if that's a good thing or if I should make him more interesting.

[Arashikage]

well, the fact that "Mary Sue" is a generally female name is a good place to start. it's hard to call it "gender neutral" if the very language you use is inherently gendered.

 

so why do we automatically cast this prototypical obnoxious badly-written wish fulfillment character as a female, even when we're actually meaning to talk about males?

 

I just explained why though, the very beginning was based on a character named Mary Sue making fun of self insert fanfics.  The character was named Mary Sue, the Star Trek fans took to calling the characters like her Mary Sues because of it.  

[Drasiana]

The fact that Mary Sue is a gendered term and people already have a habit for being harder on female characters is what makes it a bit of a problematic term. It's not necessary the term Mary Sue itself, as there IS a male counterpart, but the term has become so muddled and mixed with the sexism female characters already face in disproportionate amounts it's just not an especially good combination of phrase and intent.

 

You'll find way more people calling Krystal a Mary Sue than calling Wolf a Gary Stu even though they both have some identical fundamental flaws (unexplained backstories and under-developed or explained relationships with Fox).

 

People really just use Mary Sue as a blanket term for any female character they don't like, and because "Mary Sue" has mutated to mean basically anything, it means that whoever is using it never really has to justify why they are doing so. Or at least, they don't think they do, but then I internet punch them.

[unoservix]

I just explained why though, the very beginning was based on a character named Mary Sue making fun of self insert fanfics.  The character was named Mary Sue, the Star Trek fans took to calling the characters like her Mary Sues because of it.  

 

that doesn't explain why we still do it.

 

hell, the fact that we can't even agree on what to call the "male version of a Mary Sue" is further evidence that the whole concept is based on gender. we all seem to agree far more readily to associate those traits and tropes with a female character than a male one.

[Arashikage]

I for one have never cared what gender a Mary Sue was. I use the term for any character that deserves it. It really doesn't and shouldn't matter whether it's a female name or a male name. There are lots of gender specific terms that are used to determine seemingly negative traits. Debbie downer, negative Nancy, doubting Thomas. Are these all sexist terms too?

[Drasiana]

 

So did you not actually read my post that you liked or

 

It really doesn't matter that you don't use it in a sexist way (at least, you think you don't), just because that isn't the way you might specifically use it doesn't mean that that isn't the direction in which the phrase metastasized.

[Fana McCloud]

I for one have never cared what gender a Mary Sue was. I use the term for any character that deserves it. It really doesn't and shouldn't matter whether it's a female name or a male name. There are lots of gender specific terms that are used to determine seemingly negative traits. Debbie downer, negative Nancy, doubting Thomas. Are these all sexist terms too?

 

We don't mean a lot of things in a sexist way, but they have the subtle effect of reinforcing sexism in society when they're steeped in gendered language and implications. Example: Many terms for a woman actually serve to infantilize women because they literally refer to young animals or children's things: baby, chick, doll. Society still looks upon women as being childish, and those terms don't help any. Terms for men don't generally follow a similar pattern so it is generally a sexist phenomena. Do most people mean it that way? Of course not. Doesn't change the reality of the issue though. Try arguing something similar for the N-word with black people and see how that goes. XD

 

I had honestly never heard of doubting Thomas as a term, and the rest are feminine - so right there you have negative terms being predominantly female, or at least the more common ones.

[Drasiana]

Also I highly recommend reading the post that Uno linked because it explains everything pretty well.

[unoservix]

"doubting Thomas" is a Biblical reference. in the Gospel of John, the Apostle Thomas has his, um, doubts that Jesus actually returned from the dead, and continues to doubt until he sticks his finger inside one of Jesus' wounds.