Love

[Xortberg]

Since this is the philosophy board, I assume a topic about love (not relationships, but the actual concept) is appropriate. I'll try to make it short.

All Haddaway references aside, I basically want your opinions on the question of "What is love?" The dictionary will tell us that love is essentially a strong feeling of affection for something, so I'm not too worried about it in a 'definition' sense. Since I already feel like I'm rambling, I'll simply ask a few questions here to hopefully spark some discussion.

First off, since it's the question that sparked this topic in the first place, is it possible to love - and I mean actually love - a fictional character? In the same vein, (or the exact same question, depending on your beliefs ) Can you love a religious figure, such as Jesus? I know for a fact one can love the ideas they represent or the actions they performed, but is it possible to actually love the characters themselves?

And also related to the original discussion, is it possible to love someone you only know over the Internet, or would that have to wait until meeting them in-person? I can see both sides for this one, since interaction between the parties could foster affection, but also until you personally know them, you run the risk of that person being a 'fake.'

So there it is, SF-O. Maybe this topic will finally give me the answers to the 1993 European dance song we all know and (maybe) love.

[Thu'um]

First off, since it's the question that sparked this topic in the first place, is it possible to love - and I mean actually love - a fictional character? In the same vein, (or the exact same question, depending on your beliefs ) Can you love a religious figure, such as Jesus? I know for a fact one can love the ideas they represent or the actions they performed, but is it possible to actually love the characters themselves?

And also related to the original discussion, is it possible to love someone you only know over the Internet, or would that have to wait until meeting them in-person? I can see both sides for this one, since interaction between the parties could foster affection, but also until you personally know them, you run the risk of that person being a 'fake.'

So there it is, SF-O. Maybe this topic will finally give me the answers to the 1993 European dance song we all know and (maybe) love.

Ok, i beilve so. I love Martin.

Yes you can love Jesus. I have had several reilgous experences, and each time i grow closer to him. And to the point, don't the actions we take make us who we are? One could think about murdering ones wife, and not. It doesn't might matter that one thinks these thoughts but thoughts are thoughts and actions are actions. 

[Xortberg]

Yes you can love Jesus. I have had several reilgous experences, and each time i grow closer to him. And to the point, don't the actions we take make us who we are? One could think about murdering ones wife, and not. It doesn't might matter that one thinks these thoughts but thoughts are thoughts and actions are actions.

As a Christian, though, you must be aware of the whole "Whoever lusts after a woman has committed adultery in his heart?" So to a Christian, that sort of thing - thoughts and attitude -  ought to make a difference.

In any case, I already admitted to being able to love outward appearances, which do commonly reflect held values and are a rather good measure of a person, but I believe that until you have interacted with a person and learned through experience who they are, you can't love them, but rather the ideals they put forth. I think this because, until you've built up a level of trust to the point that you can have no shame confiding anything in someone, I don't consider it love. You don't love halfway, and a one-sided relationship - especially with a fictional character, like Martin where only one party even exists - is just not love to me.

Example: Milky and Robert. I love the hell out of both of them, to an extent. Milky, I know personally, and have known him for several years. In that time, I've gotten to the point where I basically keep no secrets. Nothing in my life is too shameful to tell him, so I'd say I definitely love the guy. Robert, on the other hand, I only know casually. I definitely like his debating style, and I respect his intelligence and the fact that he seems to me to be an all around good guy, but other than that, nothing. I wouldn't tell him what few 'deep, dark secrets' I do have, so I can't really say I love him. Rather, I love his actions, and the personality he seems to possess.

[Thu'um]

As a Christian, though, you must be aware of the whole "Whoever lusts after a woman has committed adultery in his heart?" So to a Christian, that sort of thing - thoughts and attitude -  ought to make a difference.

In any case, I already admitted to being able to love outward appearances, which do commonly reflect held values and are a rather good measure of a person, but I believe that until you have interacted with a person and learned through experience who they are, you can't love them, but rather the ideals they put forth. I think this because, until you've built up a level of trust to the point that you can have no shame confiding anything in someone, I don't consider it love. You don't love halfway, and a one-sided relationship - especially with a fictional character, like Martin where only one party even exists - is just not love to me.

Example: Milky and Robert. I love the hell out of both of them, to an extent. Milky, I know personally, and have known him for several years. In that time, I've gotten to the point where I basically keep no secrets. Nothing in my life is too shameful to tell him, so I'd say I definitely love the guy. Robert, on the other hand, I only know casually. I definitely like his debating style, and I respect his intelligence and the fact that he seems to me to be an all around good guy, but other than that, nothing. I wouldn't tell him what few 'deep, dark secrets' I do have, so I can't really say I love him. Rather, I love his actions, and the personality he seems to possess.

thoas feelings are normal, its what you do with them that matters - My priest.

The thing is I know all of martins thoughts been with him on several adventrues and know him quite well. Mabye more so then i know any one here. Sort of how we know what Abraham Licon was like. we weren't there. But we no what happened and what his thoughts were.

 

[Sabre]

It's all dependent on your definition. "I love ice cream" is a common phrase but I doubt those people have an emotional attachment. They just like it alot.

[Xortberg]

thoas feelings are normal, its what you do with them that matters - My priest.

The thing is I know all of martins thoughts been with him on several adventrues and know him quite well. Mabye more so then i know any one here. Sort of how we know what Abraham Licon was like. we weren't there. But we no what happened and what his thoughts were. 

Yeah, and we love the ideas they represent, rather than the person (or mouse) himself. You've presented plenty of examples of how we could love a persons ideas or attitudes, but provided no insight on how this connects to loving them as a person, the same way you would love a spouse or a true friend. You might view Martin or Abraham Lincoln as a role model. You might go a step further, like me, and actually interpret a character's personality in your own unique way and have little conversations with them in your head to figure things out. But that's not loving them, but rather what they mean to you.

It's all dependent on your definition. "I love ice cream" is a common phrase but I doubt those people have an emotional attachment. They just like it alot.

Ooh, irony. Sabre uses definitions on me. How the tables have turned 

I'm talking about emotional attachments here. I suppose I did invite a comment like that by not being specific, but whatever.

[Sabre]

Not really. You justified it well enough. While it's easy to say "I love sniffing my naibours laundry ice cream" saying that about a person is very difficult. That for me is the distinction.

[Milkyway64]

Get out of my laundry, Sabre.

[Redeemer]

Get out of my laundry, Sabre.

Haha! Oh Milkshake, this is the reason we all love you.

I think it is possible to love a character. I myself am a very affectionate individual, and there are some characters I would say I love. I've even cried and felt like crap if they happen to be killed off. Which, btw, is a curse of mine. All my favourite characters die. Always. :'(

[Xortberg]

Haha! Oh Milkshake, this is the reason we all love you.

I think it is possible to love a character. I myself am a very affectionate individual, and there are some characters I would say I love. I've even cried and felt like crap if they happen to be killed off. Which, btw, is a curse of mine. All my favourite characters die. Always. :'(

I get very attached to characters myself, sometimes to the point of irrationality. I had to fight the urge to throw my computer across the room when Sora from Digimon

didn't end up with Tai, despite all signs from season 1 and the first movie pointing to that conclusion.

Still, I haven't seen any argument able to convince me that it was nothing more than fanboy rage, which we all know is irrational. I also almost cried when

whichever Weasley twin it was was killed in the seventh Harry Potter book

, but I've still yet to meet anyone able to convince me that it was the character I loved, rather than the ideas he represented. Now, in casual discussion, I'd definitely say I love a character, but I'd mean it in a more casual way, basically saying 'I like these characters, but I like this character more.' I wouldn't mean it in a sense that I truly loved them.

I can sort of see the other side, though. If you know enough about a character to say you love them - we'll take ajc and Martin as an example - it's most likely because you know enough about the ideals they represent and you know enough about their personality to be certain you would love them in real life. Normally, I'd see it as shallow and one sided, but I try to argue both sides of a debate, and while thinking about this, I think I might have figured out how it works for you all.

In reading through a Redwall novel following Martin the Mouse through his adventures, ajc learns about him and decides he likes the guy. He doesn't literally know him, but he figures if he had spent enough time with him to get this deep into his mind and learn about him, interact with him, etc., in person... or in mouse, or whatever, he would love him. Still, I don't know if that would qualify as loving the character or loving the idea of the character, but am I correct in assuming that's the general thought process behind this?

[Redeemer]

Yeah, but remember that Sora was always attracted to Matt, there were strong signs of that too. Matt became a douche. Sorry I don't know how to use spoiler tags haha!

Also - I cried at the ending of Legacy of Kain: Defiance. Raziel. <3  :(

[Xortberg]

Just use [spoiler!]. Minus the '!', of course. There's not a button yet.

[Thu'um]

Right i under stand what your saying with, i just admire what he did and such, But thats not it. They books a written in 3rd person so i know what he thinks. I pretty much love his personality, and if that isn't love then what is?

I think it is possible to love a character. I myself am a very affectionate individual, and there are some characters I would say I love. I've even cried and felt like crap if they happen to be killed off. Which, btw, is a curse of mine. All my favourite characters die. Always. :'(

you have no idea! I creid at almost every sad ending of Star Fox Command! I still cry and i played the game more then a year ago. I just loved all the characters so much...

[Milkyway64]

you have no idea! I creid at almost every sad ending of Star Fox Command! I still cry and i played the game more then a year ago. I just loved all the characters so much...

The difference is while Martin and characters in works like Harry Potter have good developement and a good bit of the focus is building on them, Command is a videogame that doesn't try too hard on it's story and doesn't bother humanizing it's characters seeing as we very rarely know what they are thinking at all even by facial expression, which never changes from a bland neutral look.

[Thu'um]

The difference is while Martin and characters in works like Harry Potter have good developement and a good bit of the focus is building on them, Command is a videogame that doesn't try too hard on it's story and doesn't bother humanizing it's characters seeing as we very rarely know what they are thinking at all even by facial expression, which never changes from a bland neutral look.

The thing is i was attached to Fox before that and even if i had a bad or weak reson to love him, i did. It was hard to predict the tone of SFC but it seemed rather gloomy so i was sad the whole time. And that music at the end. I have never seen herd anything so sad. Also dilouge was bad. Like " Sorry fox, i can't do this any more" it was heart breaking to read that.

[Milkyway64]

It sounds like you're just an impressionable kid. There's been much more heart breaking moments all throughout fiction that make that look like a parody comedy. StarFox, again, doesn't TRY to humanize it's characters or make sympathetical icons out of them or else we'd hear about Fox's mom more.

[Thu'um]

It sounds like you're just an impressionable kid. There's been much more heart breaking moments all throughout fiction that make that look like a parody comedy. StarFox, again, doesn't TRY to humanize it's characters or make sympathetical icons out of them or else we'd hear about Fox's mom more.

Agreed, but there were gaint holes in the STC characters emotions, i guess i just sorta filled them in my self.

[ballisticwaffles]

My apologies for the poetic instances i may use, but love fills the empty void of my soul.

A;though it is only for the propogation of the species in a way to boost the survival of the offspring, i truely believe in the power of love. THe love in my life has been delivered in sweet tantilizing moments where all the universe looses its vast meaning and only he lass in front of me has any distinct form. Oh how those moments are for me, a battle hardened emotionless jack ass to feel a positive emotion not drawn form the ridicule of others. And oh how i wish i wasnt an unlikeable guy so that i would be able to hold a girlfriend. Love to me is sacred, a holy union no man or deity has anyplace in manipulating.  Thats is partially my parents divorice hit me so hard. The concept of two people leaving each other whom would go through the entire spheel of courting and marriage still baffles my incredably self centered mind.

Now for a mood whip lash.

WHAT IS LOVE! OH BABY DONT HURT ME! DONT HURT ME! NO MORE! WHAT IS LOVE!

[Thu'um]

My apologies for the poetic instances i may use, but love fills the empty void of my soul.

A;though it is only for the propogation of the species in a way to boost the survival of the offspring, i truely believe in the power of love. THe love in my life has been delivered in sweet tantilizing moments where all the universe looses its vast meaning and only he lass in front of me has any distinct form. Oh how those moments are for me, a battle hardened emotionless jack ass to feel a positive emotion not drawn form the ridicule of others. And oh how i wish i wasnt an unlikeable guy so that i would be able to hold a girlfriend. Love to me is sacred, a holy union no man or deity has anyplace in manipulating.  Thats is partially my parents divorice hit me so hard. The concept of two people leaving each other whom would go through the entire spheel of courting and marriage still baffles my incredably self centered mind.

Now for a mood whip lash.

WHAT IS LOVE! OH BABY DONT HURT ME! DONT HURT ME! NO MORE! WHAT IS LOVE!

thats a new side of you.

[ballisticwaffles]

its 11:00 something and im sleep deprived. Im philisophical when im sleepy.

Also nobody asked before.

[Thu'um]

its 11:00 something and im sleep deprived. Im philisophical when im sleepy.

Also nobody asked before.

ah, it all makes sense now, and i can sleep safly tonight

[Xortberg]

Sorry, But I completely disagree with you Xort, Are you saying that if you haven't seen someone for 10 years or something that you can't love them because they've probably changed, and so you love them for who they used to be, not who they actually are?! That's just nonsense.

Yes, in a sense, that is what I am saying. Of course, most people will (rightly) assume that the person in question will still be either the same or close enough that the changes either won't matter or won't make enough of a difference to change their feelings about them. That said, if you've had no contact with them for ten years, there's a good chance that they've changed. Those changes may or may not affect your opinion of them, so until you have confirmed that you still love the person in question, you only love who they used to be and hope to love what they've become.

And you can invest a lot more time in characters in a book (or in religion if you're so inclined) or something than you can in real people,

Unless you're counting fanwork - and even then, it's a stretch. You can spend a lifetime with a person and find yourself in any number of possible scenarios with them. With a character from a fictional work, you can only experience what was written, or acted, or shown. You can never truly experience something with them, so you can never invest more time in them than is possible with a real person.

you can know them more intimately than you will know most people in your life, you learn to see their faults as well as their strengths. And if the character dies at the end of the story you can be physically and emotionally upset as if a real person had died. The only difference is that you can rationalise that the character WAS only a story. But that only helps you recover quicker, it doesn't stop you being upset in the first place.

I won't argue that it's much easier to intimately know a character than a person IRL, but it's still quite possible to see the faults and strengths of anyone you come across if you would just put in the effort to get to know them. And as I've said earlier in the topic, I myself have been emotionally affected by fictional characters. The movie Rent is the only movie to ever make me cry - multiple times, and at the same part at that. But being emotionally affected does not necessarily equal love. Still, if you loved a character who died and a real person who died, I guarantee you'd me more affected by the real person emotionally and physically, and the effects would be stronger immediately and last much longer.

Having said all that, in the case of someone like Krystal, I do agree that when you first see her, (And given that she has no real established character, probably ever after that), the only thing that you can feel for her is lust—not love... but now we're just picking at details, since to a lot of people its the same-diff.

I have nothing to say to this point, since I basically agree with it.