The "Complain About the Plot" Thread

[Drasiana]

Okay so as a fair warning this is going to be hugely tl;dr and I'm just writing it for a few reasons, mostly: a ) I am procrastinating on doing analysis on things that are actually important and b ) I am actually just a huge nerd.

But we all are because we're on a Star Fox website (or two). Anyway.

Here's your all-purpose complaints about story, characterization, consistency, etcetera etcetera to that series of games we all have the weirdest love/hate relationship with.

And here are mine.

Krystal

I don't hate her, let's just get that out of the way. I actually even like her design, aside from the godawful pink jumpsuit in Command. I just dislike her seriously underused potential and being shoehorned into the backseat of "love interest". In both Adventures and Assault, her existence had absolutely no bearing on the plot. Even in Adventures, though she's used as a motivator for Fox to find the Krazoa, it's just a facade; he would have had to have found them all anyways to complete the mission, and get paid...which was his goal to begin with. I think the intention was that he started off a little greedy but then started doing what he did out of genuine care, but Krystal never did anything but sit around and look pretty. Even her staff could've found its way into his hands some other way, like it just being some totem of power kept by the ThornTails or whatever. She did nothing to facilitate Fox's change, and even if that was her attempt, saying "her beauty was so much that it reformed him" is a weak argument and, in the end, he's being selfish anyways because he only wants Krystal because she's shiny.

Her telepathic powers are never explained, and are horribly useless in Assault. "Fox, my psychic powers tell me the giant f*ck-me lights are its weak point!" Thanks for the heads-up, Krys. And the Saurian distress signal could have been picked up by the Great Fox, though that entire level was nothing but a distraction anyway. Her backstory, a tale of being the sole survivor of a ruined planet on a quest for answers, is never paid off. Cerinia is completely forgotten about. This is not something that has to dominate the plot, either, but it was entirely left by the wayside and leaves a gaping hole in the reason for her existence.

Even romantically, she is not paid off. For the two minutes she interacts with Fox in Adventures, she first tells him to screw himself, then joins the team in the last thirty seconds as Rob makes a "haha he has a boner" joke. Then Assault happens...and nothing romantic comes to a head. Yeah, we get a lot of "oh, Krystal, be safe!" or "Fox...*concernface*". But aside from being absolutely paranoid about their well-beings, we never see them interact. We get the sense that Fox is friends with Slippy, Peppy and Falco because of the way he talks with them, but with Krystal, it seems to be almost never anything other than generic "be safe" comments, which makes her look incompetant and him look like a paranoid control-freak. Their relationship in the game is built solely on not wanting the other one to die. The one other moment we have is when Tricky makes the honeymoon joke, but...where did that come from? He's the only one that's acknowledged their relationship. Are they supposed to be together? Has Fox "confessed" yet? We don't know. And we never see it, until we're just expected to believe it happened in Command, meaning the development of their relationship happened offscreen and we, as audience members and some as shippers, were cheated out of the very thing they were there for.

Krystal in Star Wolf was one of the best possible moves for her character. This is the first time, since the very beginning of Adventures, that we've seen her as a proactive character. You might think she's a bitch, but she's facilitating the plot for once in her existence, and she is justified for her anger at Fox. Different resolutions, smaller conflicts, and tensions arise from this situation, and conflict is what their relationship needs. Otherwise it is bland, and there's no buildup to them as a couple; it's just expected, and the want for them to be together is simply out of conventional expectation, not out of complete care for them and what they mean to each other. What does Krystal mean to Fox? What does he mean to her? We don't know, because this is never expressed by either party.

To be a useful character, Krystal really only needs a few things:

-Explanation and clarification of her backstory. I'd almost argue that the entire "Cerinia and my parents are dead baaw" backstory could be entirely eradicated, and Krystal simply made a treasure hunter (how she wound up in posession of the staff, and wound up on Sauria). If we do want to give her the "searching for answers" story, it has to be paid off, and that would require a lot of story dedication in-game.

-Show conflict in her relationship with Fox. It doesn't even have to be *bad* conflict, ala Command, but there has to be some sort of question or uncertainty that, in turn, makes us ask "will they or won't they"? Show their relationship on-screen, and have some aspects of their character compliment each other in a way that makes us believe that they are attracted to each other. The fact that they're both foxes just doesn't cut it, nor does their current in-game relationship.

-Show what she not only offers to Fox, but offers to the team dynamic of Star Fox itself. I have almost no impression of how she, Falco, Slippy and Peppy get along, though she seems to be a bitch to them more than anything. Fox is the leader, Falco is the ace pilot, Slippy is the mechanic, Peppy is the vault of wisdom...but Krystal's faulty telepathy never offered anything to either the gameplay or story, and "telepath" isn't really a title. There are so many roles she could fill in a team such as Star Fox, and that could easily be explored.

Star Wolf

Star Wolf is Star Fox's rival team. Or are they? I have no idea at this point because of all the radical shifts they've gone through. In 64, they are clear-cut bad guys working for Andross and trying to make Star Fox miserable. They make fun of their opponants' shortcomings and tragedies and show no indication of nobility. Then comes along Assault and suddenly they're a group of lone rangers, like Star Fox but only slightly darker, with enough nobility to classify them as anti-heroes instead of villains. Honestly, I like this incarnation better in some respects; it makes them more feasible as long-term characters and not just "those guys they keep having to fight over and over". For me, perfection would be caught between 64 and Assault; I found them much too nice in Assault, but having them be at least relatable might be a good idea. But what my most pressing question is, and I'm sure I speak for most of the fandom when I say this is...where the hell did these guys come from? I'm not expecting a long and intricate life history here, but if they're expected to be rivals to Star Fox, there has to be some kind of justification for that. In 64, I bought it, because they're not really assumed to be much more than just some tough cronies of Andross'. But once Andross died, why did they continue on? Most pressing is Wolf and Fox's relationship, and they clearly have history, but what? Did their families know each other? Did they go to school together? Meet in a bar one time and get into a fight over sports teams? Who the hell knows, but we want to find out. Panther and Leon are somewhat less important, but I'd still like to know who they are beyond simple team filler. Ironically, the two most-hated members of Star Wolf are the two with the most history and development, that being Pigma and Andrew. Pigma was a Star Fox member, a friend of James and Peppy, who betrayed them out of greed. Wow, what a bastard! And Andrew is Andross' young nephew, trying to impress his powerful relative and failing hilariously. Motivation and comedic function! But what do Wolf, Leon and Panther bring to the story other than "those guys Star Fox has to fight"? The teams aren't even, either, in Assault, instantly taking away any threat they would have had (if they didn't turn into good guys almost instantly after you meet them).

I also didn't buy Wolf and Fox's relationship in Assault. Wolf was played up as this mysterious anti-hero that grudgingly respected Fox and had a surprising amount of wisdom for him. All Fox did was stare off and say "Wolf..." mysteriously. By the by, as much as it's quoted, "when the time comes, don't hesitate...just act" is a goofy moral tagline. It's like saying "when I throw this ball at you, don't hesitate to catch it, or it'll hit you in the face". It's not a moral, it's a peice of logical survival advice, which while useful, doesn't have any real moral importance. Now, if it had some reflection in a personal struggle, and Fox took that advice (Krystal, perhaps?) then it would have been better, but really, the only functions it serves is popping up again so Fox can remember to kill the Aparoid Queen. Sorry, but Fox seems a little derpy if his rival has to tell him to press the big red button to kill the bad guy. What I sort of equate "...don't hesitate, just act" with is the line about the "opportune moment" in Pirates of the Caribbean, but this was hardly the thematic statement of that film and just a humorous theme for a subplot. This would have worked as a subplot in Assault, but it's expected to be taken far seriously than what it is. The "meaningless moral statement" comes up again when Fox is musing over the "enemies and allies..." line on Fichina and trying to be cryptic and pensive, but fails. If there was any serious drama about loyalty in the plot, then fine, but there wasn't; we know Pigma's a dick and Fox has no reason to be so shaken up about Star Wolf right then.

So, what does Star Wolf need?

-Why are they here, what is their function, and how do they reflect Star Fox, both morally and in a fight? They are an obstacle in 64, but a conveniently-gotten ally in Assault, which isn't brought about through any character turns or reversals. Just "so let's kill some bugs" "ok".

The Other Villains

Andross was fine for what Star Fox 64 was. "Crazy scientist is exiled, amasses an army, tries to exact revenge". There are maybe a few logistical things here and there but really, he's a simple enough villain and effective in that. Next, chronologically, we get Shears, Andross' lackey that wants to revive their leader. Also makes sense, and ties into the previous plot. Then comes General Scales, an evil warlord that...wants to tear his planet to peices. Okay, wtf? Why? Where does that come from? You can't rule a planet if you destroy it and being that Scales doesn't seem the most technologically proficient lizard on the planet, it doesn't look like he has many other options. "But it was Andross all along!" Well, as the story goes, Andross was just supposed to be a bonus boss that was shoehorned in as THE FINAL VILLAIN at the last moment in the most bizarre plot contrivance that bulldozed what little established mythos we had of the Krazoa and didn't bother to explain the remnants, turning the entire plot into nothing but a gaping plothole. Then comes Assault. Looks like Andrew has invaded the Lylat System! He's using the remnants of Andross' following to stage a revolution, could this be Lylat's new threa--oh just kidding, it's a giant Borg knockoff. Why have a villain with a face and motive when you can just throw Generic Sci-Fi Villain #23 in to be used as cannon-fodder? I liked the way the Aparoid Queen used mimicry to try to manipulate her opponents, but this happens once (and there was potential with General Pepper, which was actually one of the cooler parts of Assault) and seems like a throwaway as there's no reason for Fox to be questioning any of what she's getting him to question. This could tie back to the "allies or enemies" theme, if for some reason we were led to believe James did something bad (which they could have done, as he was said to have encountered an aparoid too) and have Fox to question his father, only to have that questioning reversed in some kind of REVELATION OF PERSONAL TRUTH, but no. "Hi I'm your dad" "No you're not" "Oh ok ARGHJABAGFDFGH" wasn't exactly an emotional sequence. Next up is Command, where...giant mutated fish from Venom invade Lylat for, what else, but control. And to also mess with every law of physics in the Lylat System and provide a backdrop for Fox and Krystal's relationship issues. Ugh.

So, let's check our villains for motive. We have...control, control, control, and control. Boy, this formula hasn't gotten stale at all.

What can be done about this?

-Have the conflict come from within Lylat. The world is big enough to be explored, and I'm sure there must be some actual bad people in an entire solar system. With such an expansive world, baddies can come from somewhere, and don't forget that Star Fox is a mercenary team. The fate of all of Lylat doesn't always have to be the goal. For a game, this may offer the problem of enemy fodder. Shooting stuff is fun, and with big armies of bad guys and monsters, it's easy to throw them there and go to town. But baddies are easy enough to throw in there once you have a solid antagonist, and that's the most important thing that we need.

-"Oh no Lylat is being invaded by giant fish" is such a rediculous, huge conflict that it loses its relatability; I was much more interested in the suggestion that Andross' banishment was not justified, and the implications of Cornerian corruption. If the plots of Command and Assault had elements combined, that would be solid; Andrew's army invades Lylat, Star Wolf plays the mysterious rival telling Star Fox to back off, maybe throw in Dash to suggest the history with Andross being maybe not such a bad guy. That gives the Venomians motivation and Star Fox more room to decide morality, instead of just being pointed to one spot by Pepper and told to go shoot everything with the guarentee that it'll all be fine. The games are about the mercenary team Star Fox, not Corneria's lackeys.

Setting

Lylat is widely unexplored, which is disappointing considering all the planets it has to offer. Corneria, Katina, Macbeth, Venom, Titania, Sauria, Fortuna, Fichina, Aquas, Zoness, Papetoon (if Command made it canon again), and all the places in-between. But the only one of these worlds that we've really seen in much detail is Sauria, and I suppose we had a good glimpse of Corneria in Assault. But I want to know more. How do the politics of these places work? Is Corneria the superpower of the solar system? Do the other planets have leaders? Is Solar a planet or not? This is really less of a plothole and more of a "Dras is sad because she wants to explore more worlds". Just throw us a game combining aspects of Assault and Adventures, plz; I want to see the other worlds in the detail that Adventures showed Sauria, and not be limited to just one planet per game.

Command

This in general was a pain in the ass for me, partially because it had things I really, really liked and things that I absolutely hated. The nine endings and attempt to please everyone was an absolutely horrid idea that did little more than make everyone angry, not to mention the fact that most of the game is not canon makes the whole thing seem incredibly pointless. Why did you need to force Slippy to have a personality-devoid fiance? Why did we suddenly decide to give Peppy a daughter? Where the heck did Andross' grandson come from and how is he working in the Cornerian Army, no questions asked, while Andrew seems blissfully unaware of his existence? I can't see any justification for any of these characters other than Dash being a plot device (Andrew easily could have filled that spot instead of just...being a giant crab for some reason), Lucy being Krystal's bff (which I don't believe because she didn't exist before this game) and Amanda...apparently being "lawl slippy is soo ghey" joke repellant. I did like aspects of Krystal defecting to Star Wolf. I did like Andross' villainy and Corneria's innocence being brought to question. But the tone made no sense. There was so much tonal whiplash that I'd be willing to bet that the game was just a giant parody of itself; it hated itself so much that it felt the need to jab itself for the entire duration of the game. You have silly one-liners and Wolf telling missiles "they suck" one moment, then next you have insane melodrama with Fox and Krystal. I almost forgot that we were trying to stop giant fish from invading Lylat (fff) in certain parts simply because that was pretty much a subplot. Fox and Krystal's Dr. Phil-worthy crying fest was the main plot of the game. Seriously, the logline would be "two estranged lovers must face the truth of their relationshup in the face of a mutant invasion". We didn`t give a crap about the Anglars. I didn't really care for Fox and Krystal either, but at least the game made an attempt at trying to get us to.

What do we get from this?

-Decanonize the entire thing. Perhaps leave elements of Krystal's involvement in Star Wolf and the questioning of Corneria's innocence, because these have potential for lasting character-driven and engaging conflict. Combine Dash and Andrew to make Andrew a more interesting character. Only use Lucy if you mention why we've gone three previous games without her so much as being mentioned. Command was actually the only Star Fox game that had a real character arc for any number of characters, so as poorly-executed it may have been, that was a step in the right direction.

And a Summary

If you've actually read through this much of me complaining (without flying into a fanboy rage) like a giant goddamn nerd (which I am) then you deserve a medal. A medal on expert mode. Anyway, so what are the points I'm trying to stress in this giant mega-post, and what can Star Fox benefit from at this point?

-Character relationships, why they exist and are important to the story, and what the characters get out of one another.

-To tie into that, the motives, desires and beliefs of the characters, and what puts them in conflict with the story or each other. (Pick a backstory/personality and stick with it, ffs)

-Character arcs; a true Point A to Point B progression where we see a positive change in the heroes and/or villains.

-Exploration of the game universe and drawing conflict from the pre-existing world instead of an outside force

-Solidify the rules of the universe (ie. clarify the Krazoa, Krystal's powers, etc.)

-Sensical thematic statements and how they're reflected in the environment, and by proxy the plot, of the game.

-Whatever else I mentioned in the post that I'm not forgetting.

SO. Thoughts, comments, concerns, insults? Say what you think the story of Star Fox can beneft from. Hoepfully we'll get some actual discussion here going instead of the constantly reiterated and obnoxious mantras of "I LOVE KRYSTAL" "LOL SHE SUXX".

[ZM Anonymous]

I read it all and . . . WOW! So many plotholes of size and depth that the canon is just a wedge of swiss chesse now.

One thing that I'd like to know personally, along with how they originated, Is why, after 64, they kick out Pigma and Andrew and how they and Panther met. And I also would like to know about Wolf and Leon's relationship, how they met, and their origins/past because as far as I can tell, they just seem to appear out of thin air.

Fans could make a great Starfox story of their own if they'd heed your advice. And you say that Fox was 26 in Adventures; In 64, Fox was supposedly 18. That leaves an 8 year gap. I guess the 64/Adventures mini-comic cuts that to 4 years for either side. Show them not being the Heroes of Lylat and actually show them acting like, well, mercenaries.

[myu]

I understand your frustration with the character development/background and plot, at least in Assault and Command (I haven't played Command but I've read enough about it to know that the multiple endings were dumb and cliche). I'm not really going to count Adventures because that was basically in introduction game and nothing more, since they didn't seem to care about what the hell was actually going on on a DEEPER LEVEL. Anyway, Krystal's and Fox's relationship never really bothered me all that much. I mean, I assumed they'd only been together a few months and I'm pretty sure neither of them have been in relationships before, so I just equated their "BE SAFE" as they weren't really sure how to act toward one another, especially in front of the rest of the team. Although, I think Krystal does hit on him once or twice or something. The rest of Star fox not commenting on the relationship never really bothered me either, until you brought it up lol. You would think that at least Falco would say something snarky every chance he got because he's Falco. I do agree though that she was severely underutilized in Assault (and Adventures). I was really hoping there would be more revealed about her, but I guess that can also be attributed to why Fox doesn't know what to do with her. He doesn't know anything about her either, which is weird. It would have also been nice if Fox had a new issue. Not saying he should be completely over his dad dying, but he should be at a point where someone bringing it up doesn't make him like, "HANG ON. I HAVE TO TAKE A MOMENT AND SHAKE BEFORE I CAN MOVE ON AND DO WHAT I NEED TO." I mean, there's so much other shit weighing on him that he could freak out about - whereas Krystal seems to be completely over the fact that her ENTIRE FAMILY was wiped out MYSTERIOUSLY.

I was so upset when Star Wolf's role was so tiny and also cliche. I really think that Nintendo didn't bother with making the characters or plot any more interesting because the game was already popular just by its name. I guess they thought, why bring something new when we can just ride the 64 wave? I would have also loved for more characters to make a cameo. I mean, where did they all go? I know Katt was off living a normal life with that blue cat from the comic, but not everyone could have settled down. Or if they had, there could have been a brief mention of it.

There really was no conflict. Oh my god, was there no conflict. There was only black and white, good and evil, and really no one in between. Yeah, Wolf is kind of like, "Oh man I think I want to be a good guy, but oh wait, I can't because that's not what they made me for but maybe I'll lean that way a little anyway." I wouldn't really put him in the grey area though because in Assault he doesn't do anything that would be considered morally bad. The only time you fight him, he's just defending his territory... only to leave and go off somewhere else afterward which was stupid (where did they go anyway?)Leon is clearly unstable in some way and probably one of the more intriguing characters in the game, but I don't think I'd shed much more light on him because I like thinking that he's irrational and explaining why he is the way he is would just take away from that. Panther portrays himself exactly the way he wants people to see him and I accept that. I do want to know where that scar came from though since I don't think we know why, but I'm pretty sure a woman gave it to him.

I think what would have really helped this game was if it had been longer. I played through it in a day, which was really disappointing. I like knowing the fact that a game will take me more than a few hours to beat. Exploring other worlds would have really helped with that, as you said. I mean, the Aparoids invaded on such a huge level that I'm pretty sure they would have had a few hives on the other planets that the game completely ignored, since it was supposed to be a system-wide invasion. Revisiting Krystal's planet was unnecessary, as you said, when they could have gone somewhere else instead. But, who knows? Maybe they'll use that for another game or something. I don't know, it kind of feels like people are afraid of making games too long. Like, if it takes too long to beat, then it will lose interest and no one will buy it. But they don't understand that if the plot and characters are good enough, people will play it to the end.

Uhhh, I'll just stop there before this post gets too long.

EDIT: I think the reason they didn't cover the years in between much is because it was supposed to be a lull in everyone's lives. With everywhere at peace there was nothing to do and I guess the glory of saving Lylat was either short lived, or got old for them really fast. Falco's little vacation would have been interesting to see though.

Also, I don't think Andrew was kicked out so much as he left on his own. I mean, I'm sure he had aspirations of his own (I guess) and decided that since Andross' blood was in his veins he could take over the universe too. Except he failed so hard that it wasn't even funny like it was meant to be, and no one gave 5 seconds to the fact that he died.

[Nope.]

Sooo, yeah. Dras, I basically agree with everything you said and, technically, I don't have anything insteresting to say, but I'll write down something anyway. I don't want to waste my 217th post with two lines ( 328th if you count the Rec Room ).

The part about Krystal is one of the reasons why I would prefer that they released Dinosaur Planet instead of merging the two things together, ruining her character and messing with the main plot of the franchise with the sequels.

Technically, SF:Ad can be summed up by saying that is a crossover between DP, a franchise that "never existed" about dinosaurs and a couple of anthros, and SF, a franchise about anthros IN SPACE, with canon continuity.

The difference is that Krystal, now, wears skimpy tribal clothing/sexy Fetish Fuel sci-fi armor, and what has that anything to do with her usefulness in the team, or franchise anyway? A hot girl, furry or not, does not make a good character without a good development. That's the real problem with Krystal, not the existence of the character itself.

So, in the end, I don't hate her too. I hate the way they... uhm... "developed" her.

For Andross... yeah. The final battle against him, in Adventures, felt like it was something random the programmers thought at the last moment.

Why did we suddenly decide to give Peppy a daughter?

I think she was mentioned in the Japanese manual of 64... or so I heard. But I don't care about her.

[Prince Elite]

Well, I do take objection to The Zelda timeline and EVERYTHING being throw into anarchy whenever a new game is released, and can we please settle just who is the Link of the series. Are they different people? Descendants? Or reincarnates. Is it too much to ask?

[ZM Anonymous]

Well, I do take objection to The Zelda timeline and EVERYTHING being throw into anarchy whenever a new game is released, and can we please settle just who is the Link of the series. Are they different people? Descendants? Or reincarnates. Is it too much to ask?

Are we talking about the same game here? Are you just trolling, or are you just completely misled by the topic title? If you're trolling, just use the emote. Otherwise, don't try to derail the topic.

OT: I would like to see more of a background for Fox rather than "The prodigal son of James McCloud, out for vengeance, but ultimately protecting the Lylat System." Even Falco had a bit more character development at times than Fox. Plus, I'd like for there to be a miniseries covering the Hot Rodders. It would be an interesting breath of fresh air from the norm.

[Redeemer]

Well, I do take objection to The Zelda timeline and EVERYTHING being throw into anarchy whenever a new game is released, and can we please settle just who is the Link of the series. Are they different people? Descendants? Or reincarnates. Is it too much to ask?

Yeah, I'm having a hard time working out what you mean here. Wut?

[Nope.]

Well, I do take objection to The Zelda timeline and EVERYTHING being throw into anarchy whenever a new game is released, and can we please settle just who is the Link of the series. Are they different people? Descendants? Or reincarnates. Is it too much to ask?

My Off Topic sense is tingling.

And no. There's somekind of timeline ( two actually ), it's the release date your problem, sir.

To stop making your brain explode everytime you think about it, just assume that 70% of all Zelda games are all different universes.

Back On Topic, people.

[DZComposer]

This'll be good.

:popcorn:

[Drasiana]

I was really hoping there would be more revealed about her, but I guess that can also be attributed to why Fox doesn't know what to do with her. He doesn't know anything about her either, which is weird. It would have also been nice if Fox had a new issue. Not saying he should be completely over his dad dying, but he should be at a point where someone bringing it up doesn't make him like, "HANG ON. I HAVE TO TAKE A MOMENT AND SHAKE BEFORE I CAN MOVE ON AND DO WHAT I NEED TO." I mean, there's so much other shit weighing on him that he could freak out about - whereas Krystal seems to be completely over the fact that her ENTIRE FAMILY was wiped out MYSTERIOUSLY.

Those points of conflict between Fox and Krystal would be interesting if they were intentional, which as it stands I don't think they were because no one ever acknowledges that as ever being a problem. There are a lot of problems already in the characters that could easily work as flaws, but aren't meant to. Fox not knowing how to handle Krystal doesn't come off as "inexperienced, cutesy new love", it comes off as awful writing expecting us to buy "OMG BE SAF KRYSTLAL" as romantic, even in its thirtieth reiteration.

EDIT: I think the reason they didn't cover the years in between much is because it was supposed to be a lull in everyone's lives. With everywhere at peace there was nothing to do and I guess the glory of saving Lylat was either short lived, or got old for them really fast. Falco's little vacation would have been interesting to see though.

Except we know things are supposed to have happened in-between. I don't buy that 8 years passed between 64 and Adventures without absolutely anything happening (FBF did, at least), and again Krystal/Fox developed off-screen, which was one of the primary overarching plots of the series. 8 years is a long time to go without funding and I don't think the Great Fox is fuelled for free.

Also, I don't think Andrew was kicked out so much as he left on his own. I mean, I'm sure he had aspirations of his own (I guess) and decided that since Andross' blood was in his veins he could take over the universe too. Except he failed so hard that it wasn't even funny like it was meant to be, and no one gave 5 seconds to the fact that he died.

Andrew did leave on his own, I believe that was actually mentioned in canon. But I do agree and was annoyed that not even a moment was spared after a gigantic moth comes in and ruins his sh!t (though I guess he technically survived). To me, he's an interesting dude. He has so much character potential, in that he wants so badly to be like ol' uncle Andross and yet he's too much of a sensitive dweeb to get anywhere. That's a really funny yet strangely relatable and sympathetic setup and I'm angry that they didn't go anywhere with it, instead just shoehorning Dash into what could have been Andrew's actual character arc.

The difference is that Krystal, now, wears skimpy tribal clothing/sexy Fetish Fuel sci-fi armor, and what has that anything to do with her usefulness in the team, or franchise anyway? A hot girl, furry or not, does not make a good character without a good development. That's the real problem with Krystal, not the existence of the character itself.

I would agree and I do dislike uninteresting, cardboard cutout sex appeal characters. What some media KIND of does right is at least give those characters some kind of dramatic function. If Fox really did go out of his way in Adventures to save her (meaning it wasn't necessary to save the planet anyways) then she would have served a purpose. She could have done the damsel in distress thing if it caused Fox to do something he wouldn't have normally done, but it really didn't, because the Krazoa were needed to save the planet anyways and then there's the whole bit with Andross that never made sense to begin with.

I think she was mentioned in the Japanese manual of 64... or so I heard. But I don't care about her.

Yeah. Her only function in Command was liason between Fox and Krystal and Katt could have done that. Though I did like Lucy's setup as being a physicist, which is interesting and not like anything we've really seen in other characters. My only problem with her is that she just came out of nowhere. I would have bought it if she was Peppy's niece, but not his direct daughter. At least her introduction wasn't as bad as Amanda, they gave us the courtesy of at least telling us about Peppy's late wife and whatnot.

[Deploy]

Are you kidding me???

The Star Fox plot is 100% FLAWLESS!!!!!!!!!

The sarcasm levels are through the roof!

[myu]

Those points of conflict between Fox and Krystal would be interesting if they were intentional, which as it stands I don't think they were because no one ever acknowledges that as ever being a problem. There are a lot of problems already in the characters that could easily work as flaws, but aren't meant to. Fox not knowing how to handle Krystal doesn't come off as "inexperienced, cutesy new love", it comes off as awful writing expecting us to buy "OMG BE SAF KRYSTLAL" as romantic, even in its thirtieth reiteration.

Except we know things are supposed to have happened in-between. I don't buy that 8 years passed between 64 and Adventures without absolutely anything happening (FBF did, at least), and again Krystal/Fox developed off-screen, which was one of the primary overarching plots of the series. 8 years is a long time to go without funding and I don't think the Great Fox is fuelled for free.

Andrew did leave on his own, I believe that was actually mentioned in canon. But I do agree and was annoyed that not even a moment was spared after a gigantic moth comes in and ruins his sh!t (though I guess he technically survived). To me, he's an interesting dude. He has so much character potential, in that he wants so badly to be like ol' uncle Andross and yet he's too much of a sensitive dweeb to get anywhere. That's a really funny yet strangely relatable and sympathetic setup and I'm angry that they didn't go anywhere with it, instead just shoehorning Dash into what could have been Andrew's actual character arc.

I'm sure that in the time gap between the games, they took smaller jobs or something to keep the Great Fox going. When the world isn't in crisis, you can't be picky. But their daily lives after 64, I guess, weren't worth making a game about. I could see it as a comic though, which they should really do again because it was awesome.

Now that you mention it, yes, they should have brought Andrew back for Command and been like, SURPRISE he's still alive and trying to find himself/figure his life out. I don't know what the point of introducing so many new characters was. But I guess at least they tried to develop their stories more? I mean, I know it wasn't particularly well done, but I think it would make a lot of people happy if Command's attempt at character development was merged with Assault to make a new game that didn't just skimp on one area altogether.

[Rin]

Oikinny did come back in Command, but it was very brief, and very poorly executed.

[myu]

Did he. Well, as I said before I haven't played that game. It's too bad it was brief though.

[Robert Monroe]

I'm going to chime in here on the Star Wolf deal: while they did start out as clear-cut villains, I do like they evolved some beyond that. I enjoy the notion of them being more like vigilantes or banditos in space, instead of just KILL STAR FOX GRRR. All the allegations of their "friendship" in Assault really is because of Fox. And Fox in Assault was the most two-dimensional piece of paper to ever exist. Wolf's "don't hesitate just act" like was never meant to be moral advice, it was Wolf being the cold-faced hardass he thinks he is. It was Fox who goes "Wolf..." all meaningful like he thinks they're BFFs now, and remember in the Aparoid Core level its Wolf who tells Fox to stop being a derpface and to focus on the mission. Needless to say, Starfox and Wolf are not friends, they merely knew that the Aparoid War was bigger than either of them.

Now it can easily BECOME that Fox and Wolf become BFFs (and I hope it never does), but as it stands most of the evidence "supporting" that comes from Fox's shitty wooden acting in Assault.

Really, Assault is just one huge piss on the storytelling that has slowly crumbled apart up until then. Pigma is the badguy? Fox reacts with dull surprise (uh hello Fox this guy killed your fucking dad). Peppy doesn't seem to mind either! And good to know that Pigma instead of being an interesting character with conflict (remember he and James and Pepper -were- BFFs at one point) will sell out his ENTIRE SPECIES TO BUG ALIEN INVADERS. Good to see Falco instead of being the awesome smarmy guy will instead POLITELY APOLOGIZE FOR FLYING BAD INSTEAD OF BLAMING THE WEATHER/FOX/ARTICLE OF YOUR CHOICE. Good to see the built up relationship between Pepper and Fox results in Pepper just being written out of the series (and in Japan dying). Really, Assault is like those bad "edgy" fanfictions written by 14 year olds who have a basic grasp of the BASIC character traits of everyone, and lack any real concept or grasp of GOOD storytelling, made canon. And it's depressing.

[Drasiana]

Did he. Well, as I said before I haven't played that game. It's too bad it was brief though.

He piloted a giant crab. Yeah. He was a worse throwaway boss than Assault.

I'm going to chime in here on the Star Wolf deal: while they did start out as clear-cut villains, I do like they evolved some beyond that. I enjoy the notion of them being more like vigilantes or banditos in space, instead of just KILL STAR FOX GRRR. All the allegations of their "friendship" in Assault really is because of Fox. And Fox in Assault was the most two-dimensional piece of paper to ever exist. Wolf's "don't hesitate just act" like was never meant to be moral advice, it was Wolf being the cold-faced hardass he thinks he is. It was Fox who goes "Wolf..." all meaningful like he thinks they're BFFs now, and remember in the Aparoid Core level its Wolf who tells Fox to stop being a derpface and to focus on the mission. Needless to say, Starfox and Wolf are not friends, they merely knew that the Aparoid War was bigger than either of them.

I agree that Fox was the one who screwed up all the relationships, and I'm forever annoyed how he went from a smarmy, dickish bounty hunter to...that. But the "don't hesitate" line did come off as some sort of long-lasting advice, just because of its reiteration. If Wolf had said it once, whatever, but specifically having a flashback to him saying it was goofy and putting the line on a pedastel it didn't deserve. I did like Wolf in Assault and how they weren't totally evil, but we didn't see why they were suddenly not clear-cut villains nor did we see them really do anything that would signify they were villains to begin with. "Don't like Star Fox much", maybe, but there's not enough conflict in that.

Really, Assault is just one huge piss on the storytelling that has slowly crumbled apart up until then. Pigma is the badguy? Fox reacts with dull surprise (uh hello Fox this guy killed your fucking dad). Peppy doesn't seem to mind either! And good to know that Pigma instead of being an interesting character with conflict (remember he and James and Pepper -were- BFFs at one point) will sell out his ENTIRE SPECIES TO BUG ALIEN INVADERS. Good to see Falco instead of being the awesome smarmy guy will instead POLITELY APOLOGIZE FOR FLYING BAD INSTEAD OF BLAMING THE WEATHER/FOX/ARTICLE OF YOUR CHOICE. Good to see the built up relationship between Pepper and Fox results in Pepper just being written out of the series (and in Japan dying). Really, Assault is like those bad "edgy" fanfictions written by 14 year olds who have a basic grasp of the BASIC character traits of everyone, and lack any real concept or grasp of GOOD storytelling, made canon. And it's depressing.

Thank you for mentioning these. Especially Fox and Peppy's absolute nonchalance towards Pigma. That bothered me. Fox seemed far more upset about Wolf...doing stuff than he did about close encounters with the dude responsible for his father's death. James isn't even mentioned until the very end, where it's #2 out of three games in the series where James shows up just because someone on the writing staff thinks simply mentioning "his dad died" makes the story 4678x more deep.

Pepper died in Japan's version of Assault? That's bollocks. I thought it said he died in Command, in which case it would be fine just to disregard that entire game in the canon. If he died in Assault that would be goofy, especially the way Peppy saves him like a boss. Seriously, Peppy is the only character I thought Assault handled really well. The moment that he crashes the Great Fox into the aparoid force field thing is by far one of the best scenes in the entire series. I gots chillz. There was actually a hint of some nice development and turmoil with Peppy and I really liked the way he was handled.

[Robert Monroe]

Again: the flashback wasn't Wolf's fault, it was Fox's .

[Drasiana]

I'm saying from a general writing standpoint it was stupid But I guess if the writers intended to imply that Fox was too much of a derp to know to actually kill the thing...

[Robert Monroe]

In Assault? Fox very well may be that big of a derp. Not even joking.

[unoservix]

I never really got what Pigma was on about in Assault anyways. If his sole motivation is greed, okay, but what are the aparoids going to do for him? If he wanted to take the Core Memory for himself and then sell it back to the Cornerians in hopes that they were desperate enough to pay top dollar for it no matter where they got it from, okay, but then why all the running around? If he wanted to control the aparoids himself, okay, but why?

Instead it's just sort of HAI GAIZ HERE I AM BEIN EVUL LOL

[Drasiana]

The idea of him wanting to sell it back to the Cornerians is good, Uno.

Another thing that struck me yesterday: the Wolfens at the beginning of Meteo in Assault. Why. How. What. You see these wrecked Wolfens, Krystal's all I DETECT FAINT BRAIN PATTERNS and suggest they evacuated, but how, where, why? Are we supposed to rescue them? Are they dead? Nope, we just see them turn up a couple levels later--in perfectly fine wolfens--and the event is never mentioned again.

ಠ_ಠ

[Robert Monroe]

It can not be said enough in enough languages how fuckstupid Assault is.

[Zzz]

Another thing that struck me yesterday: the Wolfens at the beginning of Meteo in Assault. Why. How. What. You see these wrecked Wolfens, Krystal's all I DETECT FAINT BRAIN PATTERNS and suggest they evacuated, but how, where, why? Are we supposed to rescue them? Are they dead? Nope, we just see them turn up a couple levels later--in perfectly fine wolfens--and the event is never mentioned again.

ಠ_ಠ

Oh shit, yeah. I remember now...

At THAT point on my first playthrough, I thought they were assmiliated. Maybe they were gonna be originally, and they..just...kept that scene...because...krystal could say that cool line?

Oh please, someone give me a better explanation! Even if it's a made-up fan-retcon, please!

Oh and Rob, I'll just press Esc so your avatar can't rape my eyes :3

[unoservix]

Aparoid'd Wolf was pretty much what I was expecting when he showed up on Corneria, and I was actually looking forward to seeing how Fox would fight a buttload of aparoids and an assimilated Wolf without an Arwing, but then it just turned out they were bromantic frenemies or something.

[Stella Hawk-Lombardi]

No complains about characters, only about things they never get clear (Krystal's past has been always a complete mystery!)

And some Command's endings. Come on, writers, what were you thinking! :shock: