Arwing designs debate

[Zicka]

Fine, I'll do as requested and start a new topic. This shall be a continuation with my last post. Admins or whatever: you can go ahead and unlock the other thread.

"A thing that diffuses" and diffuse as a verb is to "spread evenly or to scatter" Usually it deals with light. If you scatter gravity, as the name would state, you deflect it, causing a floating movement.

That is the second of three definitions. It does not scatter gravity, It simply generates an inertial dampening field that protects the ship from high-speed aerobatics. IT IS NOT A REPULSORLIFT.

And that matters because...? The G-diffuser deflects gravity, no point manipulation or gravimetric propulsion.

lol, ur funni.

You missed my point. Assult was meant to be a SF game, the storyline has nothing to do with the ships. Rare didn't spend much time designing the arwing, it was slapped on there at the end. Hince the dumb flight levels. Namco and the others have taken time to make the designs work.

Didn't spend much time? It looks just like the 64 version, except slightly stupid. That thing has a better chance of flight thn that horrid Assault design.

Just except the fact that I'm right. I don't want to have to pull out canon sources.

btw, You're so a debater. What event do you do? I was in policy for a while.

what?

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

Zicka, let me explain something to you, in case no one has shared this before.

Star Fox is based in a FANTASY WORLD. Just because it can't operate in OUR world doesn't mean it can't operate in the fantasy world in which it is BASED, because the laws of physics don't apply to the imagination. And if they do, you have a really crappy imagination.

In our world, guess what? Frogs don't invent submarines, foxes don't fly planes, and falcons don't have relationships with domestic cats.

You are arguing that something in a FANTASY world wouldn't work in ours. ... Duh. Next you'll be trying to argue as to why Krystal's staff wouldn't work to shoot pigeons off the Empire State Building.

[Zicka]

So?

Inertial dampeners is a very real theory, so I wouldn't be so sure.

[DZComposer]

Where's that canon evidence you told me you had?

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

You're wangsting and whining over something that people acknowledge anyway. Plus, you're demanding that we "except" (sic) that you're right.

Considering that, well, you're not an aerospace engineer, nor are you an expert on the subject in ANY sense of the word, we don't have to accept any of your conclusions, much less one based on graphical representations of a fictitious vehicle.

[Zicka]

Where's that canon evidence you told me you had?

Uh...

"The Arwings Revolutionary G-diffuser system generates a force field that protects the ship from enemy fire and from the stresses of high-speed aerobatics"

~ The StarFox64 Official Nintendo Player's guide.

"The primary fighting machine of the StarFox team. With the G-diffuser anti-force generator, The Arwing is able to perform many different tasks."

~ StarFox64 instruction booklet.

You're wangsting and whining over something that people acknowledge anyway. Plus, you're demanding that we "except" (sic) that you're right.

Considering that, well, you're not an aerospace engineer, nor are you an expert on the subject in ANY sense of the word, we don't have to accept any of your conclusions, much less one based on graphical representations of a fictitious vehicle.

Meh...

[SabreMc]

I am going to approach this calmly, so may I remind you that Star Fox isn't the only occurance of the G-Diffuser.

Ehem,

"An antigravity unit known as the "G-Diffuser System" allows F-Zero machines to drive at hyper speed while hovering just inches above the track. Through the use of micro-plasma engines, the maximum speed of these machines can exceed the speed of sound." ~ F-ZERO GX Instruction Booklet

And please don't go saying the G-Diffusers used in F-ZERO are different to the ones used in Star Fox, as they are the same system.

Now, F-ZERO vehicles don't truely fly, they hover, as I just quoted, but they are more compact than an Arwing, and don't have wings, but vehicles with wing-like parts do handle better.

This leads me to believe that the wings of an Arwing are used for stability, control, and to improve the field of the G-Diffusers, as was said, an Arwing without wings gets close to the ground, but doesn't actually hit the surface, it more hovers at F-ZERO height when not being forced up.

I will however agree, as the son of an Aerospace builder, that some of the Arwing designs would not take off without the G-Diffuser, but hey, do we have giant monkey heads trying to take over our planet? As was said, SF is fantasy, sometimes logic doesn't fit fantasy, like people in Duel Masters Anime flying back after they are defeated, can logic explain that?

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

You also have to remember, Shadow, that F-Zero also has a character name James McCloud who looks quite a bit like Fox and James of Star Fox fame. And his vehicle looks a bit like an Arwing.

Plus, yeah.

Fantasy =/= logic

[SabreMc]

Very true, and although the GX booklet says he leads Galaxy Dog, it also says he modified his combat plane to use in in the Grand Prix.

[Zicka]

I am going to approach this calmly, so may I remind you that Star Fox isn't the only occurance of the G-Diffuser.

Ehem,

"An antigravity unit known as the "G-Diffuser System" allows F-Zero machines to drive at hyper speed while . Through the use of micro-plasma engines, the maximum speed of these machines can exceed the speed of sound." ~ F-ZERO GX Instruction Booklet.

That has been subject to debate. Notice that it states this it "allows F-Zero machines at hyper speed while hovering just inches above the track."

Emphasis changes a lot dosen't it? Indeed it could go both ways, Is the G-Diffuser in fact a repulsorlift system, or an inertial dampener.

And please don't go saying the G-Diffusers used in F-ZERO are different to the ones used in Star Fox, as they are the same system.

Now, F-ZERO vehicles don't truely fly, they hover, as I just quoted, but they are more compact than an Arwing, and don't have wings, but vehicles with wing-like parts do handle better.

Do you know what happens when an F-Zero car goes off a jump or falls off the course? It pretty much falls like a rock. If the G-diffuser contributes so much to flight this would not happen.

You also have to remember, Shadow, that F-Zero also has a character name James McCloud who looks quite a bit like Fox and James of Star Fox fame. And his vehicle looks a bit like an Arwing.

He has officially been stated as a homage and not a cameo, there is no link whatsoever.

will deal with the rest at a later time.

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

And they're all fictional characters, so it doesn't matter at all anyway. =)

This is like arguing whether Gandalf's staff is heavier than Saruman's.

[Kal]

Which us utter BS. Saruman's has a rock. :P

[ONE_HELLCAT]

And they're all fictional characters, so it doesn't matter at all anyway. =)

This is like arguing whether Gandalf's staff is heavier than Saruman's.

You mean it isn't? I say forget it, all the arwings had different flight characteristics. Losing a wing didn't affect you in the SNES game, it did in 64, I don't think you could even lose wings in Adv so we can't tell, and Assault, well it's Assault. Your arwing did everything slow in that, from turning to falling. When you start thinking about this stuff the game isn't as much fun. It's like after watching Super Man pointing out all the mistakes, like how was it that Miss Lane didn't get a scratch while being tossed around a plane. Granted, it was a good movie, but focusing on the details like that makes it harder to see how much great it can truely be.

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

Which us utter BS. Saruman's has a rock.

Nuh-uh! Gandalf could SO bust the scale with his.

@Hellcat: Remember something, dear. Zicka likes to annoy people to the point that he gets kicked off of message boards. Then he whines and cries until the admins get sick of it and let him back on. It's a vicious, never-ending cycle.

[Zicka]

You mean it isn't? I say forget it' date=' all the arwings had different flight characteristics. Losing a wing didn't affect you in the SNES game, it did in 64, I don't think you could even lose wings in Adv so we can't tell, and Assault, well it's Assault. Your arwing did everything slow in that, from turning to falling. When you start thinking about this stuff the game isn't as much fun. It's like after watching Super Man pointing out all the mistakes, like how was it that Miss Lane didn't get a scratch while being tossed around a plane. Granted, it was a good movie, but focusing on the details like that makes it harder to see how much great it can truely be.[/quote']

I beg to differ, trying to figure out how this stuff can work in real life can make it more fun. And that was the origonal point of the debate in the first place, the fact that the StarFox series is getting more and more stupid and non-believable.

Meh..

I know you personally hate me. But try to refrain from spreading misinfromation about me. You've managed to turn someone completely against me with your forked toungue, and have attempted to do the same on boards where I've been a respectable member. If what you say is true, then sooner or later I will be banned from this board. But if it's not the case, then don't try to encourage such thought with your hateful propaganda. :P

[SabreMc]

Continuing this in a calm manner,

Do you know what happens when an F-Zero car goes off a jump or falls off the course? It pretty much falls like a rock. If the G-diffuser contributes so much to flight this would not happen.

I am -well- aware of this, and, in a way, stated so

Now, F-ZERO vehicles don't truely fly, they hover,

in fiction, to hover generaly means to be 'float' above the ground or another surface, but with no ground, plus their weight... and I alsostated that it may have something to do with the lack of wings:

but they are more compact than an Arwing, and don't have wings, but vehicles with wing-like parts do handle better.

This leads me to believe that the wings of an Arwing are used for stability, control, and to improve the field of the G-Diffusers, as was said, an Arwing without wings gets close to the ground, but doesn't actually hit the surface, it more hovers at F-ZERO height when not being forced up.

Besides, start an F-ZERO GX race, the vehicle can be made to hover without the engines running, after leaving the ground, you could leave it sit there for 3 hours (I have done this, in a moment of immense boredom, and absent mindedness, I forgot a race had started) or more and it would only move if someone slammed you.

Without all the information, this debate could go on for a -long- time.

EDIT: on that note, I noticed that this is getting some people ticked off, maybe we should start wrapping it up.

[ArwingMaster]

okay, my turn.

"The primary fighting machine of the StarFox team. With the G-diffuser anti-force generator, The Arwing is able to perform many different tasks."

~ StarFox64 instruction booklet.

Alright, so the offical booklet says it is an anti-gravity unit.

An antigravity unit known as the "G-Diffuser System" allows F-Zero machines to drive at hyper speed while hovering just inches above the track.

Yes, it says while. Meaning the G-diffuser allows it to do both.

The main point made in both of these is that the G-diffuser allows the Arwing to float, which is why you don't hit the ground when you lose both your wings. And when I car falls of the track, remember it only works for a few inches, not a few miles. And when they get close enough to the ground, momentum then is too great for the G-diffuser to kick in, hince the crash and fall.

The G-diffuser system allows the ships to float. All ships. So in space, they can fly because the only needed movement there is forward. On planets with gravity, the wings take over. The arwing and other ships of the SF team should have no problem along with Wolf's crew. The ships need to be aerodynamic and have the G-diffuser to fly inside atmospheres.

The ship that will need expaining is Amanda's tadpole. I'm giving in to that one Zicka, the tadpole can't fly. I would try missile like, but the head ruins it. But one out of ten ships being non-flyable isn't bad.

@Hellcat: Remember something, dear. Zicka likes to annoy people to the point that he gets kicked off of message boards. Then he whines and cries until the admins get sick of it and let him back on. It's a vicious, never-ending cycle.

That's mean. This debate isn't flame war. That's why it's a debate. Zicka and I don't hate each other over this. We're discussing our views with evidence until we both argee on a conclusion. Which might take a while, but I'm cool with Zicka he seems nice, just bothered that he can;t enjoy the game that much because he feels its getting to unrealisitic. Doens't mean he's mean.

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

I'm not being mean. I'm being truthful. Notice his initial post, DEMANDING that everyone accept his logic as truth and expert opinion. He's not an expert in any sort of field.

I've witnessed Zicka's actions on two different boards, and he's acted in a purposely inflammatory manner each and every time.

Zicka, if you remember, I did not turn Ferai against you. He complained to me about YOU whining about being banned. You were not banned from Starwing. You were simply not allowed to join, at the approval of other admins who knew independently of your ill behavior on other message boards. I turned no one against you--you did.

The boards that you mentioned, Zicka, were not ones where you were a respected member. You were loathed. OTG, Team Starwolf, even Starwing.

Now, as for ships not able to fly:

I've noticed that you all seem to be concentrating solely on the protagonists' ships. Ever bothered to take a look at Star Wolf's ships, whose flight is powered by "gravity blades?"

[SabreMc]

If I were to get technical, I would point to the topic title, but since I couldn't be bothered with that at this time;

You make a good point, and that also helps the idea that the wings/gravity blades improve the performance of a G-Diffuser in 1 way or another.

In a sorta related note, Arwings and Wolfens have a number of G-Diffusers (in Assault at least), so this probably also relates to the fact that they can fly, while F-ZERO vehicles can get no better than a fast runup and a midair boost or 3. The Wolfen has 3 G-Diffusers and travels at a reasonable speed, while the Arwing has 4 and is slow as, and most F-Zero Vehicles have 1 or 2, meaning that they most likely sacrafice lift and manoeverability for speed(as would be needed in a race)

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

No, actually. The Wolfen, as seen in Star Fox Assault, has NO G-Diffusers. It is instead powered by the four "gravity blades"--the wing-like structures on the sides of the fuselage, I believe. This is why, unlike the Arwing, the Wolfen cannot come to a complete stop.

[Zicka]

Alright, so the offical booklet says it is an anti-gravity unit.

Anti-force. Please take it as it is.

Yes, it says while. Meaning the G-diffuser allows it to do both.

We Don't know that entirely, It is stated in other areas that The F-Zero racers are unique in having G-Diffusers. While we see in the Story Mode of GX that personal vehicles also float.

Now did Nintendo make a continuity error or does the G-Diffuser actually do what it is stated to do in StarFox canon, and that is, remove the stresses and G-forces exerted at high speeds?

The main point made in both of these is that the G-diffuser allows the Arwing to float, which is why you don't hit the ground when you lose both your wings. And when I car falls of the track, remember it only works for a few inches, not a few miles. And when they get close enough to the ground, momentum then is too great for the G-diffuser to kick in, hince the crash and fall.

I see, now we've gone to the G-Diffuser enabling the ship to fly, to enabling the ship to float. With that, you have no argument by me.

I'm not being mean. I'm being truthful. Notice his initial post, DEMANDING that everyone accept his logic as truth and expert opinion. He's not an expert in any sort of field.

That post was directed at someone who was trying to say that Adventures canon dosen't count because he didn't think they spent enough time designing the Arwing.

I've witnessed Zicka's actions on two different boards, and he's acted in a purposely inflammatory manner each and every time.

OTG, which I cooled down considerably as of late. And STF, where I openly admit I made no effort to restrain myself.

Zicka, if you remember, I did not turn Ferai against you. He complained to me about YOU whining about being banned.

He personally attacked me for being Christian, and I checked my posts, I made no mention of my religion (or any reference to any religion, for that matter) on his board. And I never talked significantly about religion on OTG while he was there.

But who hates Christianity enough to make sure someone knows if another person is Christian or not?

You were not banned from Starwing. You were simply not allowed to join, at the approval of other admins who knew independently of your ill behavior on other message boards. I turned no one against you--you did.

The admins consisting of you, Ganon, and others known at OTG for their prejudice and hate.

The boards that you mentioned, Zicka, were not ones where you were a respected member. You were loathed. OTG, Team Starwolf, even Starwing.

You pulled the same thing on Bluie's Island Resort, Saying that I'm inflamatory when I had done no such thing on that board.

But I digress, and any more will get this topic locked. If you wish to continue further, then we should take it to PMs.

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

Meh, fine. You'll never admit to yourself that people on BIR, OTG, TSW, SHQ, and even HERE hated you before I even said a word.

And I beg to differ. Of the Starwing crew, only Ganon, Jason, Neckron, and I are still active on OTG. That leaves four admins, four super mods, and seven regular mods who are not on OTG.

And, uh... Why SHOULD Adventures canon count? It's... Well, it's not really a Star Fox game in its entirety. It's a rehash of a scrapped Rare game and a hastily compiled Star Fox game. What did we get as a result? The skanky, blue-furred monstrosity that's wa--... Well, let's just say that I really dislike that character. I never thought that we'd see the rise of a character who is more useless than even SLIPPY.

As for the SFX64 guides:

Are you sure they're reliable and not just really weird translations? That happens all too often, where information is skewed by bad translating.

... You know you're a damned geek when you're up at three in the bloody morning discussing the physics and aerospacial capabilities of a fictional vehicle.

[Guest Snytbaggen]

... You know you're a damned geek when you're up at three in the bloody morning discussing the physics and aerospacial capabilities of a fictional vehicle.

^QFT

On topic, i'd say that the G-diffusers keeps the g-forces at 1g constantly, for example in high speed manoeuvers, such as in F-Zero GX (there's no way the human body would handle that acceleration at start without a gravity reduction system) or in Arwing manoeuvers.

... Am i a geek now?

[Guest Nicky Tonik]

Mmm... You DO have a point there. Assuming that the denizens of the Star Fox universe are indeed at least somewhat structured like us ape-relations, it does stand to reason that there has to be some sort of gravitational equalizer, to keep the pilot from blacking out.

[Guest Snytbaggen]

Mmm... You DO have a point there. Assuming that the denizens of the Star Fox universe are indeed at least somewhat structured like us ape-relations' date=' it does stand to reason that there has to be some sort of gravitational equalizer, to keep the pilot from blacking out.[/quote']

or just get plain crushed. IIRC, the acceleration is 0-500 in about 0,2s.