The series should have built on Star Fox 2.

[Giladen]

After reviewing the series, I'm convinced Star Fox's handlers dropped the ball hard by not building on Star Fox 2.

Star Fox 2 had enough in it to branch it out of the rail-shooter genre. But at the same time, it wasn't remotely as  jarring as Adventures in how it's played or it's setting. You could even keep the open map and combine it with 64's path branching.

[The VGM Lover]

Star Fox would've pioneered Ace Combat, instead of...

... And then what? Would it be the king of Space Flight Combat simulator?

It could've been the king of the genre it started with, but they squandered it with each new release, and now... I am the only person in the world who thinks Star Fox could still make an awesome Rail-Shooter.

[OneUnder]

19 hours ago, The VGM Lover said:

I am the only person in the world who thinks Star Fox could still make an awesome Rail-Shooter.

I find that fairly difficult to believe...

[The VGM Lover]

38 minutes ago, OneUnder said:

I find that fairly difficult to believe...

Literally everyone around me, whenever I bring it up, just tells me no, that On-Rails is dead, and it shouldn't continue to be Star Fox's main focus. They all say they should (basically) just be another Ace Combat, and go the space flight combat simulator route, putting On-Rails where it "BELONGS", as just a minigame inside a different game, or just actually dead.

BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT THIS! My vision is just too vivid to deny it the glory it truly deserves, and in all these years, never got, yet.

[valkiriforce]

I appreciate the on-rails of Star Fox, I just like how they began to slowly introduce other elements like the Landmaster and the Blue Marine and eventually the transformable Arwing. Personally, I really liked the on-foot missions as well from Assault, but what would especially be ideal is if the next Star Fox game basically gave you the option to play the game in the way that you want to play it; be it completely on-rails, or occasionally with the Landmaster or on-foot or some mixture of them all. Obviously some space levels would require the Arwing unless it takes place on a space station a la Sargasso Space Zone.

So basically...I still enjoy Star Fox, but I liked where Assault was taking the series with those additional elements.

[The VGM Lover]

@valkiriforce Fair enough. Assault was basically something for everyone, but served too cold. Given at least a year or more, maybe even put on the Wii, it could've been the magnum opus of the Star Fox franchise, and possibly the be-all end-all for the entire fanbase at large. Especially because the chicken was properly cooked, with some really fine seasoning, not to mention the potatoes had this very interesting smoothness, and a lovely flavorful taste, with some corn to go with it. Pizza was also a really nice thing to have on the side. Lots o' beautiful toppings.

 

... I don't even like cooking. What am I doin'? XD

[Commander D]

Honestly I dont see what's so great about Star Fox 2. The problem is it's as outdated as the very original.

On 8/20/2017 at 11:39 AM, The VGM Lover said:

Literally everyone around me, whenever I bring it up, just tells me no, that On-Rails is dead, and it shouldn't continue to be Star Fox's main focus. They all say they should (basically) just be another Ace Combat, and go the space flight combat simulator route, putting On-Rails where it "BELONGS", as just a minigame inside a different game, or just actually dead.

BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT THIS! My vision is just too vivid to deny it the glory it truly deserves, and in all these years, never got, yet.

The fact is, it is dead.

• Faded coincidentally around the Gamecubes life
• A minor return happened during the Wiis life span but it was very short lived and one Nintendo IP died as a result
• A AAA title made it clear how outdated it is by having a minigame using it
• Absolutely no one makes these as there's nothing you can do to modernize or salvage it

[The VGM Lover]

... @OneUnder See? ^^ -_-

@Commander DBefore that, you say Star Fox 2 is outdated! What do you want, then!?

Also, why does everyone act like Kid Icarus Uprising wasn't a thing in 2012? On-Rails was half the campaign in that game!

[Giladen]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:11 PM, Commander D said:

The problem is it's as outdated as the very original.

I said "built on." It being outdated might be so, but that can be fixed by building on it.

On 8/19/2017 at 11:58 AM, The VGM Lover said:

Star Fox would've pioneered Ace Combat, instead of...

... And then what? Would it be the king of Space Flight Combat simulator?

It could've been the king of the genre it started with, but they squandered it with each new release, and now... I am the only person in the world who thinks Star Fox could still make an awesome Rail-Shooter.

Considering how SF SNES is the only full SF game you can call a full rail-shooter, it's hardly the core of the series.

[The VGM Lover]

What is it, then? What is STAR FOX?

[Robert Monroe]

There's plenty of ways to bring arcade shooters into the modern day. Genres don't go out of date, they simply have to innovate. Zero's problem was it was too vanilla. It didn't do anything beyond "well you're on a rail and you shoot". Power ups, gameplay gimmicks, interactive environments, branching choices based on mechanics, upgrade systems, easter eggs, all of these things need to be expanded upon so people don't feel like they're just buying the same damn game again. Star Fox needs to step back, look at itself, and rethink what it MEANS to be an arcade shooter, like how Zelda did with Breath of the Wild, or how puzzle games have managed to keep alive. People want CONTENT that's worth their money.

 

And you know? Maybe a budget price wouldn't hurt too. People would be more willing to shell out for an arcadey game if it costs 30 bucks instead of 60. 

[Commander D]

On the contrary nobody has made an arcade shooter in the past five or so years. That really says a lot on the status of it, even if it was priced lower I doubt it would've mattered since the genre has no real place anymore. Zero right now goes for about $40 due to Gamestop being overstocked on the unsold 1st editions, their used copies are $30. Even then i've never seen those sell. Call it an unfair comparison but Battleborn even for five dollars doesnt sell at all. If you really wanted to compare another Nintendo game that doesnt sell, Amiibo Festival even at $10 brand new never sells, and if it does they're only buying it for the Amiibo stuff only.

[Giladen]

On 8/23/2017 at 5:26 PM, The VGM Lover said:

What is it, then? What is STAR FOX?

A series about talking animals in spaceships. Has non-linearity which set it apart from other games like it when released.

 

On 8/23/2017 at 5:41 PM, Robert Monroe said:

There's plenty of ways to bring arcade shooters into the modern day. Genres don't go out of date, they simply have to innovate. Zero's problem was it was too vanilla. It didn't do anything beyond "well you're on a rail and you shoot". Power ups, gameplay gimmicks, interactive environments, branching choices based on mechanics, upgrade systems, easter eggs, all of these things need to be expanded upon so people don't feel like they're just buying the same damn game again. Star Fox needs to step back, look at itself, and rethink what it MEANS to be an arcade shooter, like how Zelda did with Breath of the Wild, or how puzzle games have managed to keep alive. People want CONTENT that's worth their money.

 

Breath of the Wild filled a niche that a selection of of Nintendo's audience demanded by returning to Old Zelda. It's doubtful there's a big enough demand to just make Star Fox 1 3D.

 

I ask you, is it the genre around that made Star Fox?

[The VGM Lover]

... Isn't Star Fox 1 already 3D? And are you sure it's non-linear, when the only direction you're going is forward, once you choose your path?

And I will argue that yes, it is the genre that made Star Fox. What else do people recognize Star Fox for, other than f*ckin' space furries, and waifu bait?

[Commander D]

No offense but nobody ever says they know Star Fox for being some dead in the water genre unless it's some radical individual who insists it's still good despite all evidence showing it's past its time. They either know it because of Smash and or because of the waifus and husbandos furries are all over.

On 8/26/2017 at 2:17 AM, Giladen said:

Breath of the Wild filled a niche that a selection of of Nintendo's audience demanded by returning to Old Zelda. It's doubtful there's a big enough demand to just make Star Fox 1 3D.

 

I ask you, is it the genre around that made Star Fox?

There was, you got Star Fox Zero and it was the biggest flop in the entire series.

[The VGM Lover]

1 hour ago, Commander D said:

No offense but nobody ever says they know Star Fox for being some dead in the water genre unless it's some radical individual who insists it's still good despite all evidence showing it's past its time. They either know it because of Smash and or because of the waifus and husbandos furries are all over.

Am I a radical individual who thinks a dead-in-the-water genre is good?

No.

I'm a radical individual who thinks a dead-in-the-water genre can swim out, pound it's own stomach to get the water out of it, and roar in victory.

Is that any better?

Because I don't think another genre change is really gonna make those Smashers, Waifu-lovers, or furries like it any further. If anything, it's just gonna further confuse its target audience, as if it isn't already confused enough, as evidenced by every release after 64.

And personally... if it went Ace Combat, I would just call it that. Ace Combat: Space Furry Edition. And I wouldn't consider myself a Star Fox fan, anymore.

It doesn't have what I came to it for, anymore. Nobody gives a sh*t, anyways, so why should I?

EDIT: Except Robert, of course. I know he pretty much shares the same feelings as I do.

[Commander D]

19 minutes ago, The VGM Lover said:

Am I a radical individual who thinks a dead-in-the-water genre is good?

No.

I'm a radical individual who thinks a dead-in-the-water genre can swim out, pound it's own stomach to get the water out of it, and roar in victory.

Is that any better?

Because I don't think another genre change is really gonna make those Smashers, Waifu-lovers, or furries like it any further. If anything, it's just gonna further confuse its target audience, as if it isn't already confused enough, as evidenced by every release after 64.

And personally... if it went Ace Combat, I would just call it that. Ace Combat: Space Furry Edition. And I wouldn't consider myself a Star Fox fan, anymore.

It doesn't have what I came to it for, anymore. Nobody gives a sh*t, anyways, so why should I?

EDIT: Except Robert, of course. I know he pretty much shares the same feelings as I do.

I never said you were radical, but instead some people who refuse to believe it that even mentioning this reality check gets a huge rise out of them. It's time is over and there's nothing that can be done to save it. Both 64 3D and Zero were modern installations and still managed to perform poorly with Zero being such a flop that one guy in the industry even declared that it was the final nail to the coffin. The fact is it needs a genre change to survive, if you didn't learn from the death of Sin & Punishment then there's no hope for this series.

I'm sorry if i'm being aggressive but that's how it is.

[The VGM Lover]

And I'm sorry for being stubborn, but I refuse to believe that another genre change is the only way to save Star Fox.

If I have to, give me 5 years, and I can show you why I refuse to believe that the genre cannot be revived.

Because as I always tell people, if no one else is gonna do it, than I'll do it.

EDIT: Or maybe just 2 years. It wouldn't take 5 years to simply make a proof-of-concept video.

[Robert Monroe]

On 8/24/2017 at 11:41 PM, Commander D said:

On the contrary nobody has made an arcade shooter in the past five or so years. That really says a lot on the status of it, even if it was priced lower I doubt it would've mattered since the genre has no real place anymore. Zero right now goes for about $40 due to Gamestop being overstocked on the unsold 1st editions, their used copies are $30. Even then i've never seen those sell. Call it an unfair comparison but Battleborn even for five dollars doesnt sell at all. If you really wanted to compare another Nintendo game that doesnt sell, Amiibo Festival even at $10 brand new never sells, and if it does they're only buying it for the Amiibo stuff only.

Who is "nobody"? Big name AAA publishers? They aren't the only players in the game. The "industry" has decided a lot of "genres" aren't what people want anymore - and they've been wrong EVERY time. Horror games, Classic Computer RPGs, Side Scrolling Platformers, 3D Platformers, Metroidvanias, they've all found SOME demand in the niche markets and their every growing existence in the indie market place through services like Steam show as much. Nintendo plays by its own rules and has done so since the Wii came out. It doesn't HAVE to "follow the industry", it can make its own path, and can afford to make 1st party games out of "unmarketable" genres, because Nintendo isn't foolishly shooting for those big multimillion sales figures in the sky. Zero's problem wasn't that it was a shooter, its that it was a LACKLUSTER shooter, and that's not even accounting for the fact the WiiU barely had an install base to market to in the first place.

On 8/25/2017 at 11:17 PM, Giladen said:

A series about talking animals in spaceships. Has non-linearity which set it apart from other games like it when released.

 

 

Breath of the Wild filled a niche that a selection of of Nintendo's audience demanded by returning to Old Zelda. It's doubtful there's a big enough demand to just make Star Fox 1 3D.

 

I ask you, is it the genre around that made Star Fox?

BotW wasn't filling a niche, it was reinventing its roots. It wasn't just "old Zelda", its also very much a NEW wild different Zelda with some old Zelda blood flowing in its veins. That is what Star Fox needs: take that old blood roots, and go CRAZY with it. BotW changed almost everything about the Zelda formula: how you approach dungeons, how you approach puzzles, how you approach items, how you approach combat, how you manage your money, even how you get more powerful mechanically. But it was still an ADVENTURE game, a fantasy adventure set in a land we all know and love and that is what made it flourish. 

[Giladen]

I don't know where you've posted at, but there was demand for an open world Zelda game that avoided the hand-holding and linearity that became characteristic of Aonuma. Complete with the Elder Scrolls and Souls series being held as shining examples. Whether or not BoTW was more than Old Zelda is besides the point.

 

There was demand for Star Fox. But not Star Fox 1 Super or Star Fox 64 Fancy Control Edition. I don't see what makes it so necessary to cling to the rails system when we have more advanced technology.

[ArwingFan]

To be fair, there was a demand for a reboot and to return to it's 64 roots. Heck look at Sonic, which recently got a game that returned to its roots and people loved it.

[Robert Monroe]

9 hours ago, Giladen said:

I don't know where you've posted at, but there was demand for an open world Zelda game that avoided the hand-holding and linearity that became characteristic of Aonuma. Complete with the Elder Scrolls and Souls series being held as shining examples. Whether or not BoTW was more than Old Zelda is besides the point.

 

There was demand for Star Fox. But not Star Fox 1 Super or Star Fox 64 Fancy Control Edition. I don't see what makes it so necessary to cling to the rails system when we have more advanced technology.

"More advanced technology" to do what, exactly? We've already done all range mode. Space sims have been a thing for a long time too. Technology is not the issue here. An artist can be creative with any toolset he is given. Shit, noone is saying Star Fox even needs to be a PURE rail shooter - the Gold Standard darling of the series, 64, had all range mode after all. Star Fox 2 had levels that while not true rail levels were functionally on rails (approaching battleships for example - you can fly off away but there's no practical reason to do so). The core of Star Fox isn't "on rails" per se, but it IS in arcade style, scifi dogfighting action. That was in EVERY game in the series in some capacity or another.

[Commander D]

23 hours ago, ArwingFan said:

To be fair, there was a demand for a reboot and to return to it's 64 roots. Heck look at Sonic, which recently got a game that returned to its roots and people loved it.

The difference here is Sonic doesnt represent a dead genre with no way of saving it, whereas Zero ultimately became the biggest travesty in the entire series that it managed to outclass Command in how bad it was and Command isnt even canon mind you. I dont know where you're getting your source of demand but unless you can provide it, these were only from those who only liked 64 and only 64. It's like those who only like Melee and keep demanding for (literally) the same exact game while complaining about every other one of them for not being Melee. As insane as it is and some may not want to hear it, Zero being the failure that it is also discredits 64 because it was at the very same time that people started to realize "wait, that game I remember fondly wasnt really as good as I remember", it isnt to say it's a terrible game but more so that it was average at best.

Lastly, they made it clear Zero isnt a reboot. One staff member went as far to saying it's a totally different universe from the main one. Either way, Reimagining =/= Reboot. You might as well say Metroid Zero Mission is a reboot of the Metroid series.

Oh yeah, that was years before reboot became a total buzzword

[The VGM Lover]

6 hours ago, Commander D said:

I dont know where you're getting your source of demand but unless you can provide it, these were only from those who only liked 64 and only 64.

 

Who do you think we are, 4chan?

Also, I like Assault the most. Star Fox is 2nd. And I'm the one who's demanding a return to form done RIGHT. Not ZERO RIGHT. Not even SONIC MANIA RIGHT. But BLOW YOU'RE F*CKING MIND, AND MAKE YOU GO CRAZY WITH EXCITEMENT, AND DRIVE YOU INSANE, ON A LEVEL YOU COULDN'T HAVE IMAGINED RIGHT.

[Robert Monroe]

Commander D you should try making actual points instead of throwing around buzzwords like "DEAD GENRE" and accusatory, non-verifiable claims about "the fandom". The "64 fans are the only ones who wanted a reboot" claim is a hot mess of non-substantial hearsay, and I'm saying that as one of the few actual existent 64 purists (except I'm really not everyone just accuses me of such).

Like VGM says, stop getting your sources from 4chan threads. Most fans liked Star Fox for the ARCADE SHOOTING. Most fans even ones who like Assault more than 64 agree the ARCADE SHOOTING missions were the best ones. 

Also also don't even start with that "64 wasn't actually good" crap. Yeah 64 is dated, its fucking 20 years old, of course its going to be dated. It still has objectively good design points and ideas that the franchise has failed to expand and deliver on in those 20 years and YES that includes Zero as well, and I will gladly dig out my old ass post from years ago about what those points are if you'd like. 64 is a good game. It is a well designed game. But like any other benchmark game, you can't just keep recycling it. Zelda learned that. Mario learned that. 

What do you even suggest the series do to if to stop being a "dead genre" anyway? I haven't seen you make a single suggestion beyond vague, cryptic statements about "advancing" and "improved technology".