Bullfighting

[Thu'um]

I feel like I'm just repeating everyone else at this point, since this point has already been covered as well. Battle can be honorable, but killing as a spectator sport in no way compares to fighting for some honorable cause. Killing a bull before it can rampage through the orphanage full of blind children? Honorable. Stabbing a bull multiple times then killing it so other people can laugh? Nope.

Again, several key differences here. Fights between humans usually involve both sides deciding to fight. A bull is forced to, and it's tortured beforehand. Samurai had a reason to fight, beyond entertainment.

Animals kill each other to claim territory, or survive. Not for sport.

ah a fantastic point does the bull want to fight? a first maybe not. but that is the point of provoking it. I may be total against beating it but i now see the thrill in whatching a raging bull try to impale a man. Its sorta the same idea as a thriller movie only not as humane

also how can you say i can't ates for the crowed but you can for the bull. you only asume what the bull thinks or feels

[Drasiana]

also how can you say i can't ates for the crowed but you can for the bull. you only asume what the bull thinks or feels

I think it's a fair assumption that the animal doesn't want to die, dude. There isn't some "assisted bull suicide lottery" that these things enter.

And seriously? "Humans aren't animals because animals kill each other all the time"? Where the hell have you been, is "murder" not in your vocabulary? Very few animals kill for fun, and this is a perfect demonstration of humans doing just that. Comparing this to a thriller movie is more than rediculous because hey, movies aren't real. Provoking it is just part of the cruelty. You go up to a dude, slash his arms, kick him in the nuts, and when he stabs you in retaliation, you're really going to blame him?

[Harlow]

I've seen many reports on bullfighter's injuries and deaths, and I wonder. Is it really fixed on some cases? Thet might be fighting with no strings attached.

[ZM Anonymous]

As User pointed out, war is a totally different scale than killing an animal in front of thousands so they can get their jollies. Bullfighting is an excuse for people to see something die. War is waged for a variety of reasons, and while some are as selfish as bullfighting, some are just as pointless.

Try going to Spain and telling everyone attending the arenas that. Bullfighting wasn't made just so they can see a bull get killed. It's a cultural and historical tradition for countries like Spain and/or Portugal. Besides, it traces its roots back to prehistoric bull worship and sacrifice. I hate to say this, but you're sounding like an elitist.

I've seen many reports on bullfighter's injuries and deaths, and I wonder. Is it really fixed on some cases? Thet might be fighting with no strings attached.

Plus, no one likes to acknowledge that an injured bull can still kill a man (well unless its leg(s) was broken.)

[Xortberg]

Try going to Spain and telling everyone attending the arenas that. Bullfighting wasn't made just so they can see a bull get killed. It's a cultural and historical tradition for countries like Spain and/or Portugal.

So what, being part of history makes it okay? We had slaves, and slavery is part of our cultural heritage. Does that justify it?

Besides, it traces its roots back to prehistoric bull worship and sacrifice. I hate to say this, but you're sounding like an elitist.

Again, longevity doesn't make something right. I'm not elitist, I'm just firm in my beliefs.

[Drasiana]

ZM, you just repeated Xort's definition in a more politically correct tone.

Yes, it's a cultural and historical tradition that revolves around watching something die.

Human sacrifice was a cultural and historical tradition for South American cultures, should that also be allowed?

[Thu'um]

I think it's a fair assumption that the animal doesn't want to die, dude. There isn't some "assisted bull suicide lottery" that these things enter.

And seriously? "Humans aren't animals because animals kill each other all the time"? Where the hell have you been, is "murder" not in your vocabulary? Very few animals kill for fun, and this is a perfect demonstration of humans doing just that. Comparing this to a thriller movie is more than rediculous because hey, movies aren't real. Provoking it is just part of the cruelty. You go up to a dude, slash his arms, kick him in the nuts, and when he stabs you in retaliation, you're really going to blame him?

srry but ovbiously you didn't understand my post because you just reposted what i said (for the most part) but i'm sure that has to be my fualt.

Of course the animal doesn't want to die. not what i said. But What about the animal not wanting to fight? then i was contadicting harlow's point. Why is a animal more valuable then a himan to him? animals kill each other all the time. I also said that a bull fight is a thriller much like a movie, but they certinaly on diffrent levels. I also did say that i am against the beating so then why did you bring it up as a point against me. i simply brought it up show the point for why they did it. the reason is the make the animal want to fight but obvuosly we agree once more because in your metephor the man strikes back. so mabye it was my fualt you read what i said wrong. but i just wanted to clear this up.

SO kiling a turky for thanks giving is a tradition in which somthing dies, and yet no ones gives a truck about that.

[Xortberg]

then i was contadicting harlow's point. Why is a animal more valuable then a himan to him?

He never said an animal was more valuable than a human. Where did you get that idea?

[Thu'um]

The killing of a human is NEVER going to be the same of that of an animal, IMHO.

i didn't say it he did

[Drasiana]

Why is a animal more valuable then a himan to him? animals kill each other all the time.

The point was that animals don't kill each other for fun like humans do (generally). "Value" has nothing to do with it; you're claiming that a lion killing a gazelle so it can eat is the same thing as people getting a thrill out of torturing a bull.

Also I don't think anyone thinks animals are more valuable than "himans".

SO kiling a turky for thanks giving is a tradition in which somthing dies, and yet no ones gives a truck about that.

Because we don't stick the turkey in a coliseum full of thousands of people while tormenting the bird to death.

[Milkyway64]

ITT eating is barbaric

[Thu'um]

The point was that animals don't kill each other for fun like humans do (generally). "Value" has nothing to do with it; you're claiming that a lion killing a gazelle so it can eat is the same thing as people getting a thrill out of torturing a bull.

Because we don't stick the turkey in a coliseum full of thousands of people while tormenting the bird to death.

No they kill for much less important matters. Mates Land Sometimes just because they see each other. Others kill just out of in-stink when they see another injured of their kind.

no, we do much worse to the turkey now. We Nuder all their young, clip their Flying feathers, treat them with antibiotics and keep them penned up so close together they can't even turn around. then we make them so obese with artifical hormones that they can't even reproduce with out human assitatance. but we kill the humainly right? Ya i would rather live a desent life and die a bad death. then live a terrible life and die anyway

[Harlow]

i didn't say it he did

I meant it on the "human > animal" aspect

[kkstarfox]

Bullfighting. Seems legit. I got no problem with it.

[Vy'drach]

Personally, I actually value the bull's life over the matador. Animals only do what they do as a survival instinct. Animals are not malicious. Granted things like orca whales will intentionally play with their food, by tossing the seals into the air and slapping them with their tails simply for the sake of fun, but while whales are intelligent, the idea of cruelty to their food is a bit beyond their reach. Animals do what they do because it is part of their survival.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer bullfights don't exist in the first place, but they do exist and are not going anywhere, so I'd prefer the bull actually have his full capability to counter-attack the matador. Matadors do get injured and killed, this is true. Good. These are people who made a profession of the glorified and traditional torture and slaughter of an animal for the sake of the crowd's enjoyment. I honestly have no sympathy when one gets hurt. Yes, people may go there simply for the sake of betting like horse racing, but, barring a horrible accident, the horse will be completely unharmed, where as the bull is severely harmed before the main event even starts.

Oh, and Dras, the bull isn't actually a confirmed fatality. It almost always is, but:

Very rarely, if the public or the matador believe that the bull has fought extremely bravely, they may petition the president of the event to grant the bull a pardon (indulto) and if granted the bull's life is spared and it is allowed to leave the ring alive and return to the ranch where it came from. Then the bull becomes a stud bull for the rest of its life.

Not saying this in any way pardons the sport.

Personally, I'd love it if instead of bull fighting, it went to consensual gladiatorial combat, where both parties agreed to have a fight to the death. Yes it'd be barbaric, but apart from someone willing to lose their life actually losing it, what'd the harm in that be?

Also Ajc, I fail to see how breaking their neck, thus killing them instantly (in theory) is worse than torturing them (turkeys that is).

[Drasiana]

ITT eating is barbaric

ITT absolutely no one has even implied that.

No they kill for much less important matters. Mates Land Sometimes just because they see each other. Others kill just out of in-stink when they see another injured of their kind.

oh my god what language are you speaking

"Mates Land Sometimes"? What does that even mean? "In-stink"? Really?

And dude, don't even go there. Yes, animals kill each other. People kill each other. Remember how you were JUST proclaiming the "honour" of war and battle? Case and point. Not to mention all the stories of people killing their babies, or murdering others based on their skin colour/sexuality, or killing just because some instinct in their mind thought it appropriate. Stop trying to say that humans don't kill each other, it makes you look completely ignorant, even without your rediculous mispellings.

no, we do much worse to the turkey now. We Nuder all their young, clip their Flying feathers, treat them with antibiotics and keep them penned up so close together they can't even turn around. then we make them so obese with artifical hormones that they can't even reproduce with out human assitatance. but we kill the humainly right? Ya i would rather live a desent life and die a bad death. then live a terrible life and die anyway

Yes, this happens to some livestock. And it sucks. But it isn't a spectator sport like bullfighting. People aren't gathered in crowds going LOL LOOK AT THEM NEUTER THESE TURKEYS, nor are they trying to defend these actions by saying "well we've been doing it for a long time".

edit, because I wasn't given a "new reply" notification:

@Vydrach ah, okay, so there's a few exceptions. But that's only a few, and it requires a petition. People still generally go there with the intent on seeing something get maimed.

[ZM Anonymous]

ITT eating is barbaric

That's what it will be in a bit.

[myu]

SO kiling a turky for thanks giving is a tradition in which somthing dies, and yet no ones gives a truck about that.

I'm not sure how relevant this is to the conversation, but the majority of turkeys that are killed for Thanksgiving have been bred specifically for that purpose. Over however long, they've developed them to have larger breasts so that there's more meat to be had. This makes them unable to mate without human aid or fly because of their huge breasts, not necessarily because their wings were clipped. At this point, if people just set them free in the wild, they would die off relatively quickly. Maybe it's the same for bulls used in these fights (the fact that they're bred for it, not that they would died anyway).

Also, I'm pretty sure they try to kill turkeys in the quickest way possible rather than dragging it out and provoking them to fight as they die.

EDIT: Seems weird to call letting the bull live a pardon, lol.

[Harlow]

Personally, I actually value the bull's life over the matador. Animals only do what they do as a survival instinct.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer bullfights don't exist in the first place, but they do exist and are not going anywhere, so I'd prefer the bull actually have his full capability to counter-attack the matador. Matadors do get injured and killed, this is true. Good. These are people who made a profession of the glorified and traditional torture and slaughter of an animal for the sake of the crowd's enjoyment. I honestly have no sympathy when one gets hurt.

I don't mean to insult you but, unless you're vegan/vegetarian, this is exactly the kind of semi-fascistic argument I hate about people who oppose this. I don't feel there's a difference on how the animal gets killed. At the end, it gets killed (it's the murder of a person any softer because it occured out of the public eye?). And you stll eat the animal and you think you have the nerve to think you're better than us just because you oppose to public cattle slaughter and call for the bullfighter's demise?

[Thu'um]

ITT absolutely no one has even implied that.

oh my god what language are you speaking

"Mates Land Sometimes"? What does that even mean? "In-stink"? Really?

And dude, don't even go there. Yes, animals kill each other. People kill each other. Remember how you were JUST proclaiming the "honour" of war and battle? Case and point. Not to mention all the stories of people killing their babies, or murdering others based on their skin colour/sexuality, or killing just because some instinct in their mind thought it appropriate. Stop trying to say that humans don't kill each other, it makes you look completely ignorant, even without your rediculous mispellings.

Yes, this happens to some livestock. And it sucks. But it isn't a spectator sport like bullfighting. People aren't gathered in crowds going LOL LOOK AT THEM NEUTER THESE TURKEYS, nor are they trying to defend these actions by saying "well we've been doing it for a long time".

@Vydrach ah, okay, so there's a few exceptions. But that's only a few, and it requires a petition. People still generally go there with the intent on seeing something get maimed.

animals kill each other over really dumb things, mates, land, some just kill each other because they feel they must. Male spiders and many fish it their own young! Goats will kill each other for almost no reaon at all. i did't say humans don't kill each other. But that doesn't me animals don't kill for reasons less then logical.

Little known fact, Six billion chickens and other polutry are breaded in factory farms a year. Most of our meat comes form the terrible conditions i descibed above. americans aren't really exposed to that. Sure it isn't a sport. ITS ALOT WORSE. the chickens live their entire life like this. The bull fight is a couple hours at max

[Drasiana]

People kill each other over really dumb things, mates, land, some just kill each other because they feel they must. Casey Anthony killed her own young! Psychopaths will kill each other for almost no reaon at all.

Fix'd.

Again, stop trying to argue "baaaaw aminals kill other aminals to humens are bettrer", both kill each other, but animals don't overglorify it like humans do.

Little known fact, Six billion chickens and other polutry are breaded in factory farms a year. Most of our meat comes form the terrible conditions i descibed above. americans aren't really exposed to that. Sure it isn't a sport. ITS ALOT WORSE. the chickens live their entire life like this. The bull fight is a couple hours at max

And again, no one is saying that this thing with the chickens is "good", but at least the end result there is "food" and not some cultural machismo standard. Like you said, most Americans aren't exposed to that, so they aren't taking pleasure in watching these chickens have terrible things happen to them, like bullfighter spectators are. You're going off on a tangent. "Yeah, well THIS IS WORSE!" doesn't make the first thing less bad.

[Thu'um]

Fix'd.

Again, stop trying to argue "baaaaw aminals kill other aminals to humens are bettrer", both kill each other, but animals don't overglorify it like humans do.

And again, no one is saying that this thing with the chickens is "good", but at least the end result there is "food" and not some cultural machismo standard. Like you said, most Americans aren't exposed to that, so they aren't taking pleasure in watching these chickens have terrible things happen to them, like bullfighter spectators are. You're going off on a tangent. "Yeah, well THIS IS WORSE!" doesn't make the first thing less bad.

lolololol i am saying animals are just a worse as humans. not that humans are better.

Yes factory farming is worse, But then why don't we stop eating thanksgiving turkies? or MacDonalds burgers? Yet we rant about how cruel these people are to animals. Truth is we are just the same. So i don't wanna here Oh spainerds are so cruel doing this but then turing around and eating your burger that was no doubt made from an abuessed cow.

lolololol i am saying animals are just a worse as humans. not that humans are better.

Yes bull fighting is bad, but factory farming is worse But then why don't we stop eating thanksgiving turkies? or MacDonalds burgers? Yet we rant about how cruel these people are to animals. Truth is we are just the same. So i don't wanna here Oh spainerds are so cruel doing this but then turing around and eating your burger that was no doubt made from an abuessed cow.

[Harlow]

Dras, Ajc. I think this is getting a little out of topic...

[Xortberg]

I don't mean to insult you but, unless you're vegan/vegetarian, this is exactly the kind of semi-fascistic argument I hate about people who oppose this. I don't feel there's a difference on how the animal gets killed. At the end, it gets killed (it's the murder of a person any softer because it occured out of the public eye?). And you stll eat the animal and you think you have the nerve to think you're better than us just because you oppose to public cattle slaughter and call for the bullfighter's demise?

Okay, whoa. Back the fuck up.

When did he say he was better than anyone, for any reason? He said that he supports the bull, which is understandable since it's the one being tortured, and he said that he doesn't really care if a man who's made his career out of fighting angry, rampaging animals gets hurt. This looks like a whole lot of words being put in Vy's mouth.

[Vy'drach]

I don't mean to insult you but, unless you're vegan/vegetarian, this is exactly the kind of semi-fascistic argument I hate about people who oppose this. I don't feel there's a difference on how the animal gets killed. At the end, it gets killed (it's the murder of a person any softer because it occured out of the public eye?). And you stll eat the animal and you think you have the nerve to think you're better than us just because you oppose to public cattle slaughter and call for the bullfighter's demise?

When did I ever say I was better than anyone else because I think that? And guess what, that the ends justify the means is nothing more than your opinion. You think a bull slowly succumbing to death for the amusement of the masses is equal to a good strike in the head from a sledgehammer for the sake of ending it quickly so it can be butchered into different cuts of meat, which, while not a pretty sight, is less drawn out and painful than being skewered multiple times before being impaled through the heart, which is still not instantly fatal, btw.

That's your opinion, and opinions are like ass holes, everyone has one, and most of them stink.

animals kill each other over really dumb things, mates, land, some just kill each other because they feel they must. Male spiders and many fish it their own young! Goats will kill each other for almost no reaon at all. i did't say humans don't kill each other. But that doesn't me animals don't kill for reasons less then logical.

Little known fact, Six billion chickens and other polutry are breaded in factory farms a year. Most of our meat comes form the terrible conditions i descibed above. americans aren't really exposed to that. Sure it isn't a sport. ITS ALOT WORSE. the chickens live their entire life like this. The bull fight is a couple hours at max

They may not be logical to you, but animals do them for a reason. Animals are not malicious and do not derive enjoyment out of the needless life-ending of another. Not usually, anyway, and they don't do it out of malice, but simply because they don't full understand the entirety of what they do. They will fight over territory, but they need that territory to live. They will fight over a mate, but they need a mate so that their genes can be passed on to the next generation. Plus a lot of animal "fights" are not actually violent. Ever seen two male rattlesnakes fight? No blood is drawn amongst them. They stand up as tall as they can, and attempt to knock the other one over, because the one with the more strength and endurance will triumph, and reasonably the stronger one will breed stronger babies, who if they survive to adulthood and defeat other males for the ability to mate with the female, will logically have better genes and breed better children themselves. This goes on and on with the weak ones with bad genes either dying due to the inability to survive, or because they can not get the chance to mate, and thus the weaker genes cease to be, and only stronger genes pass on.

And just because poultry and other things are bred for the sake of consumption does not mean they are mistreated. Not saying it doesn't happen, don't get me wrong, but being bred for food =/= mistreatment.

Also, thank you much, Xort.

Oh, and Harlow, I actually don't eat an animal if I know it's been treated cruelly. I refuse to eat veal because it's basically baby cows tied down in cramped cages to keep them from moving and thus toughening the meat. I won't eat the "death puffer," mainly because I hate sushi and the thing is severely dangerous if prepared wrong, but even if I lived off sushi and the thing wasn't dangerous in the least, I wouldn't eat it because they are prepared into sushi while still alive. They skin it, disembowel it, and slice it into this strips of meat while the thing is still amongst the living.

Still not saying I'm better than anyone, that's just how I am.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Vydrach