Life Gets Bold Today ("LGBT")

[Asper Sarnoff]

It appears Miyu got the most votes.

No surprise. While we don't know anything about her really, I think she somehow does remind people a little of the Bi-archtype, if there ever was one.

[Vy'drach]

No surprise. While we don't know anything about her really, I think she somehow does remind people a little of the Bi-archtype, if there ever was one.

She just reminds me a bit of a combination of two girls I used to hang with who were both bi (and scary).

[Asper Sarnoff]

She just reminds me a bit of a combination of two girls I used to hang with who were both bi (and scary).

In my case, there's also that a friend of mine has a anthro lynx character who's bi as well. http://daytonablue64impala.deviantart.com/art/Pinch-Harmonic-161815658

[Dermot]

IM chat log reposted with WolfoxOkamichan's permission.  Pardon the hen-like gossip. :3

Dermot: People can get upset when I mention how many of the Star Fox characters trip gaydar. XD

Dermot: But NO ONE argues when someone else suggests Andrew is gay. X3

Dermot: Or Miyu.

WolfoxOkamichan: XD

Dermot: Miyu was voted most likely to be gay.

WolfoxOkamichan: Leon is the "true" gay so far, with some hints on Wolf and Falco

Dermot: Your gaydar is too good. X3

WolfoxOkamichan: XD

WolfoxOkamichan: Leon's Japanese VA is consistent

WolfoxOkamichan: having that homoerotic tone

Dermot: I know. XD

Dermot: Straight people can have very poor gaydar.

Dermot: You can parade Ricky Martin in front of them and they don't see how gay he is.

WolfoxOkamichan: XD

Dermot: Anyway, I think Fox is bi, Falco is gay, Leon is gay, and Wolf is gay.  I don't think Wolf is bi...I mean, women *may* like him for being a badboy, but he just...doesn't seem bi. X3

WolfoxOkamichan: XD

WolfoxOkamichan: Wolf is too gay XD

Dermot: X3

WolfoxOkamichan: his overall looks and personality is soooo typical japanese gay

Dermot: See, if you can see these things, and I can see these things, why can't everyone else?

Dermot: Yes, I said that too!

WolfoxOkamichan: Nah, I just get around

Dermot: You "get around"? :3

WolfoxOkamichan: if you watch a lot of anime you'd get it

Dermot: X3

Dermot: I've had a sharp gaydar for years.

Dermot: I knew Falco was gay since I was 13, in 1993.

WolfoxOkamichan: XD

WolfoxOkamichan: and it's not hard to know the guys are "gays"

[Milkyway64]

Please, Dermot. We've been round and round with this, and I'm this close to making another rotation with you. There is hardly any evidence at all. StarFox is a series so unattached to itself that it doesn't even care to set up elaborate hints on what gender the characters prefer. A friend of your's agreeing doesn't change any of the evidence or lack thereof. We don't see it because it doesn't exist. It's that simple.

[Dermot]

Please, Dermot. We've been round and round with this, and I'm this close to making another rotation with you. There is hardly any evidence at all. StarFox is a series so unattached to itself that it doesn't even care to set up elaborate hints on what gender the characters prefer. A friend of your's agreeing doesn't change any of the evidence or lack thereof. We don't see it because it doesn't exist. It's that simple.

Oh, I know your thoughts on this. :3 Think whatever you want. XD

I just felt a very fan moment.  Life's moments like these are worth sharing as a timeless statement of fandom. :3 To people like us, Star Fox doesn't contain gay interests - Star Fox is one of our gay interests.

I've actually been trying to invite more gay Star Fox fans I know to become more active at SFO, so people realize just how common this belief is. :3 Everyone's been so busy lately. WolfoxOkamichan, Kenai, Ayato, Rackun, Kyuuhari...they don't have the time. I wish more of my furfag friends were here. There are times I feel adrift in a sea of Krystal-worshippers I have nothing in common with.

I mean, this isn't a topic people should debate.  It's a topic people should accept as a given.  I was shocked when I discovered people who didn't believe it.  Even more shocked when they got in my face when I said I did believe it.  Every time someone tries to say "there's no evidence" and deny the existence of gaydar, I don't want to debate it with them - I want to slap them.

Before a couple of months ago, I never even knew I'd be having to find myself in a position to debate this, because everyone else I knew understood it the same way I did.  To deny it is like saying Star Fox is not Star Fox.  I originally came here fully expecting to find lots of furfags like me (maybe as many as half the fans)...only to discover later that a lot of the gay fans avoid the fan community these days.  They like Wolf, they like Panther, they like Fox, Falco, etc.  But they don't like Krystal, and they tend not to like Adventures or Assault as games.

So I don't want to debate this.  I just want it to be a recognized and respected alternative orthodox fan perspective.  If it's not going to be the only perspective, it can at least be a tolerated perspective.  It shouldn't be a debate-trigger every single time it's brought up.  So just hear it at face value, believe whatever you want to believe, and don't attack it.  Because that starts to uncomfortably encroach in fundamental fan appeal territory.  And I already have to tolerate the Krystal fans.  (I mean, do you have any idea just how much I loathe the Krystal storyline and the Krystal fan appeal?  But it's not exactly like it's going to go away or anything like that.  Even if Krystal is killed off tomorrow with no possibility of ever coming back and it turns out she was evil incarnate, there will still be legions of Krystal fans who worship her as a Mary Sue.  But I know they have every right to like what they like and share it.)

[Sabre]

Allow me to point something out here.

1- A mary se is an unbelievable perfect auther insert character. Krystal is neither.

2

Every time someone tries to say "there's no evidence" and deny the existence of gaydar, I don't want to debate it with them - I want to slap them.

That's the problem. Logic and sceptisism work like this. You have a belief, you test that belief with evidence, if the evidence does not support your idea, you change your idea.

The lagunguage of a close minded true believer is "If it doesn't agree with by belief, it's blasphamy" which is what is happening there. As fanon, the entire SF cast can be gay, but in official canon, there is no evidence each way.

Example. If in the next starfox game fox kisses wolf on the lips, I will change my opinion and say that yes, fox is gay. So far however, the way fox behaves around Krystal suggests he's straight.

Example of the true believer possition. If fox kisses krystal on the lips they would claim they ruined the series and declare the whole game non canon in their internal fanon. A perfect example is all the Krystal fans who say Ending 1 of command is non canon because Krystal leaves fox.

[Vy'drach]

There are times I feel adrift in a sea of Krystal-worshippers I have nothing in common with.

So, Krystal "worshippers" (though I admit I would if she was real) are only interested in Star Fox because of her, and you're only interested in it because, to you, the characters are gay? If you believe that is the case then you have some things to work out.

I mean, this isn't a topic people should debate.  It's a topic people should accept as a given.  I was shocked when I discovered people who didn't believe it.

People have a right to put in their counter-arguement with logic, which is a debate. Problem with saying, "It's a topic people should accept as a given." is that you are basically saying, "It's the case, hands-down, and people are ignorant for believing otherwise." Why should we accept it as given when we don't believe it? Not denying your right to believe it, but denying your "right" to go around and spout it as the gospel truth.

Every time someone tries to say "there's no evidence" and deny the existence of gaydar, I don't want to debate it with them - I want to slap them.

You have no hard, solid evidence, just some conclusions drawn from how the characters dress (which can easily be interpreted another way, and I personally don't see any connection with Wolf's outfit and Razor Ramon HG's outfit), and some things they said in a game that isn't even Star Fox (which can also be interpreted another way, as I find it was more a sense of sado-masochism). And I don't deny gaydar, but your logic of, "I'm gay so I can recognize other gay people," is flawed in that, by the same logic, straight people can recognize other straight people. There's a natural reason to do so, as well. Recognizing potential rivals, so you can analyze their strengths should you need to fight them, over a mate, territory, food, personal defense, etc etc. These two phenomena cause an, "Unstoppable Force vs. Immovable Object" scenario. And if someone else's beliefs causes you to want to physically lash out, might I suggest you try something to help you control your emotions better, Ninjutsu's philosophies worked wonders for me, personally.

So I don't want to debate this.  I just want it to be a recognized and respected alternative orthodox fan perspective.  If it's not going to be the only perspective, it can at least be a tolerated perspective.  It shouldn't be a debate-trigger every single time it's brought up.  So just hear it at face value, believe whatever you want to believe, and don't attack it.  Because that starts to uncomfortably encroach in fundamental fan appeal territory.  And I already have to tolerate the Krystal fans.  (I mean, do you have any idea just how much I loathe the Krystal storyline and the Krystal fan appeal?  But it's not exactly like it's going to go away or anything like that.  Even if Krystal is killed off tomorrow with no possibility of ever coming back and it turns out she was evil incarnate, there will still be legions of Krystal fans who worship her as a Mary Sue.  But I know they have every right to like what they like and share it.)

Also might want to be careful saying things such as, "If it's not going to be the only perspective, it can at least be a tolerated perspective," because the "If it's not going to be the only perspective" part of it contains an undertone of, "Even though it's obviously the right one," which comes under what I said before. Again, not denying your right to believe it, but don't make it out like those who don't are idiots.

And again, I couldn't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about homosexuality. I've had few grievances with you, one of which was the relationship art being embedded instead of linked, which, looking at your sig, I see is still being done, and even adding more, even though it became a rule to do so, last I heard. While you've said that is just you being you, fine, but you should respect other's wishes, and the forum rules. Now I am not 100% certain that it became a rule for relationship art to not be embedded, I do know that it does, for me, appear to violate another forum rule that was already established.

4. Please do not post anything that suggests anything sexual or suggests the desire for a sex act.

I've said before that people making out, especially when they're naked (as it appears to be in one of your sig images), says, "We're going to have sex," "We've just had sex," or, "We may not be there yet, but we're definitely thinking about it." Those images are just you being you, fine. However, there are several images I could post that would be me, "just being me," but I don't post them because they might offend someone, or topics I could bring up that I don't, because they might offend someone. I exercise the right of self-censorship so that others won't be offended, and I recommend you try the same, especially when you know that someone is offended and that it is potentially against posting rules. However, this was just a little rant on my part, and not about the previous topic.

[Dermot]

Look, I'm not saying it doesn't sound in hindsight like arrogance.  What I'm saying is...it's a whole lot of culture shock, and I'd rather not be treated like a troublemaker just for using my honest-to-goodness senses.  Star Fox is one of our gay interests as we understand it.  And I originally walked into this website fully expecting that to be respectable, whether or not it was fully shared.  I mean, come on, this is a furry video game.  Do you have any idea how many furry people are flaming gay?  We use "furfag" as a pride term for a reason.  I feel a little cheated.  I hoped for something a little more like general-rated FurAffinity.

Anyway, I do not consider a hug or a kiss (even very affectionately) to be inherently a desire to have sex right now.  Sometimes it can be, but I don't assume that because it's just not as simple as that.  I mean, there's so much more to intimacy than having sex.  There's cuddling, there's joys of sharing a day together, there's feeling at peace with someone, there's romance...sex is usually a bigger decision.  To be safe, I didn't include any images of characters snuggling on a bed or anything like that.  Gay is a lot more complex than who you have sex with - it's mental, it's emotional, it's soulful, it's profound, it's just who you are.  It's inalienable.  People need to spend more time considering the complexities, and less time thinking in simplistic terms "it's about sex".  I mean, I'm a proud, flamboyantly gay man.  I am proud and flamboyant in just about everything I do, but and I don't actually want to discuss sexual intercourse on this site.  I'm just more of a hopeless romantic.  You got a problem with that?  (Here's a hint: No you don't.)

And I don't just like the series because of gay characters.  I like it because of the original SNES game, and a lot of the characters are cute too - they're like old huggable friends.

[Guest DRL]

Look, I'm not saying it doesn't sound in hindsight like arrogance.  What I'm saying is...it's a whole lot of culture shock, and I'd rather not be treated like a troublemaker just for using my honest-to-goodness senses.  Star Fox is one of our gay interests as we understand it.  And I originally walked into this website fully expecting that to be respectable, whether or not it was fully shared.  I mean, come on, this is a furry video game.  Do you have any idea how many furry people are flaming gay?  We use "furfag" as a pride term for a reason.  I feel a little cheated.  I hoped for something a little more like general-rated FurAffinity.

Anyway, I do not consider a hug or a kiss (even very affectionately) to be inherently a desire to have sex right now.  Sometimes it can be, but I don't assume that because it's just not as simple as that.  I mean, there's so much more to intimacy than having sex.  There's cuddling, there's joys of sharing a day together, there's feeling at peace with someone, there's romance...sex is usually a bigger decision.  To be safe, I didn't include any images of characters snuggling on a bed or anything like that.  Gay is a lot more complex than who you have sex with - it's mental, it's emotional, it's soulful, it's profound, it's just who you are.  It's inalienable.  People need to spend more time considering the complexities, and less time thinking in simplistic terms "it's about sex".  I mean, I'm a proud, flamboyantly gay man.  I am proud and flamboyant in just about everything I do, and I'm a hopeless romantic, and I don't actually want to discuss sexual intercourse.  You got a problem with that?  (Here's a hint: No you don't.)

I allways thought, and still think, that homosexual

people are just people with different sexual prefferences,

(notice 'sexual' does not means 'sex', it is rather more

'who I love' kind of), but completely rational

people just like any other people in the world.

I just do not understand why so many people think it

is wrong.

[Dermot]

I allways thought, and still think, that homosexual

people are just people with different sexual prefferences,

(notice 'sexual' does not means 'sex', it is rather more

'who I love' kind of), but completely rational

people just like any other people in the world.

I just do not understand why so many people think it

is wrong.

DRL gets it, why don't you?

I admit, I had some incorrect expectations about this site and I'm still disappointed about that.  But I'm still hoping to carve out the niche and make the best of things.  And if it's hospitable enough to bring more friends here, that would be great too.

And my dislike of the Krystal fandom is a bit fanatical and beyond logic in some ways.  I'm just still disappointed that she was ever introduced in the first place.  This is one of those reasons people want to invent time machines.

Look, when I posted that chat log, I just wanted to share a bit of culture.  I'm actually tired of the whole damn "who is right, who is wrong" debate...most people are right, in their own way.  Yes, yes, that includes the Krystal fans...

[Milkyway64]

We use "furfag" as a pride term for a reason.  I feel a little cheated.

I thought this was made by 4chan as a sort of degratory term or like "newfag" and "oldfag" but just for furries.

Gay is a lot more complex than who you have sex with - it's mental, it's emotional, it's soulful, it's profound, it's just who you are.  It's inalienable.  People need to spend more time considering the complexities, and less time thinking in simplistic terms "it's about sex". 

>implying none of us can feel this too. This works on both streets, brudda. Some gays are all about the sex and some straight people are about the emotional and soulful side of a relationship too. Come now.

I mean, I'm a proud, flamboyantly gay man.  I am proud and flamboyant in just about everything I do, but and I don't actually want to discuss sexual intercourse on this site.  I'm just more of a hopeless romantic.  You got a problem with that?  (Here's a hint: No you don't.)

You can't blame us for thinking otherwise though, for direct posting some extremely suggestive stuff.

[Dermot]

I thought this was made by 4chan as a sort of degratory term or like "newfag" and "oldfag" but just for furries.

I don't spend time on 4chan.  My friends and I have actually used "furfag" in casual friendly discussion.  Now you know.

>implying none of us can feel this too. This works on both streets, brudda. Some gays are all about the sex and some straight people are about the emotional and soulful side of a relationship too. Come now.

Yes, I know...I didn't necessarily imply that straight people can't feel that way either.  After the whole fiasco with Zicka and with Mr. Krystal, I feel a little bit more sensitive to that kind of criticism.  I'm sorry if I may have taken it overboard.

You can't blame us for thinking otherwise though, for direct posting some extremely suggestive stuff.

Oh, you don't know the half of it.  I've had some very, very playful boyfriends.  But no matter how much they wrestled and made out, we never ended up having sex, and we usually wanted to wait anyway.  After awhile, it just became apparent that that's how gay guys are affectionate with each other.  Sometimes I think...the difference with this and straight relationships, is that men and women being two separate genders, they think differently, and they have to jump through a lot more hoops together, and there's a lot more ritual and etiquette.  But two guys - they have more of an affinity of knowing what each other wants, and can more readily relate to it mutually.  Sometimes that can lead rather quickly to having sex, but not always - roughhousing is easy, but for some guys sex is a big decision they'd rather not rush into.  I've never been in a relationship where that wasn't a factor for someone.

So yeah, I've done pretty much everything you see in the collage in a situation that didn't and was never going to lead to having sex.  It's hard to explain.  For some gay guys, even very very very gay guys, sex can actually be a very rare occurrance.  It's got to be right and special, or not at all.  And it's also often patently "none of your business". :3

[Dermot]

Are we all alright now? :3

[Milkyway64]

  I've had some very, very playful boyfriends.  But no matter how much they wrestled and made out, we never ended up having sex, and we usually wanted to wait anyway.  After awhile, it just became apparent that that's how gay guys are affectionate with each other. 

By this same logic, say, a lapdance isn't sexual either. Flat sex doesn't have to be involved for something to be sexually gratifying or suggestive, you know.

Are we all alright now? :3

Were we ever really not? :lol:

[Dermot]

By this same logic, say, a lapdance isn't sexual either. Flat sex doesn't have to be involved for something to be sexually gratifying or suggestive, you know.

I wouldn't know, I've never had anything described as a lapdance.  It does sound rather silly. The way straight guys roughhouse each other all the time (sports, wrestling, teasing each other, etc.), they get more "action" than they ever get from a female "lapdancer". :3 Do you have any idea how much we've made fun of TV pro wrestling as being "gay porn for straight guys"?

Anyway, I've never kissed/grappled/etc. a stranger.  I have to know someone, and trust them.

Were we ever really not?

You magnificent bastard. Okay, maybe not you.  But I do feel the heat of internet backdraft sometimes.  I think I may have snapped a little too, out of frustration for not being able to share a cultural moment without it turning into a great big debate. >_< Furfags like their gay Star Fox, the same way they like Circles, or Vinci & Arty, or Arashi no Yoru ni, or i.s.o., or Carpe Diem, or their gay Road Rovers, or their gay Biker Mice from Mars...  They're cultural icons.

[Sabre]

I wouldn't know, I've never had anything described as a lapdance.  It does sound rather silly. The way straight guys roughhouse each other all the time (sports, wrestling, teasing each other, etc.), they get more "action" than they ever get from a female "lapdancer". :3 Do you have any idea how much we've made fun of TV pro wrestling as being "gay porn for straight guys"?

Anyway, I've never kissed/grappled/etc. a stranger.  I have to know someone, and trust them.You magnificent bastard. Okay, maybe not you.  But I do feel the heat of internet backdraft sometimes.  I think I may have snapped a little too, out of frustration for not being able to share a cultural moment without it turning into a great big debate. >_< Furfags like their gay Star Fox, the same way they like Circles, or Vinci & Arty, or Arashi no Yoru ni, or i.s.o., or Carpe Diem, or their gay Road Rovers, or their gay Biker Mice from Mars...  They're cultural icons.

Crap. Frigging forum. Lost my post. Cba typing the whole thing again so it will be blunt.

Basicly, I find it hypocritical that people find MMA, and Wrestling types gay for campy behavior and touching other men, but over compensating macho for showing off to ladies and smashing others guys faces.

[Dermot]

Okay, I'm feeling clearer-headed (feeling less bitchy :3).

When I said that my expectations should have just been taken as a given, I was speaking out of frustration and lingering culture shock.  But I'm setting those things aside for now.

I'll try to break this down.

Falco trips my gaydar for very complex and subtle reasons.  It is not all logical and rational, but deeply instinctive/intuitive.  So if you want me to come up with detailed logical explanations, you're not going to get them.  It's also complicated by it being one of the first gaydar senses I ever had, when I was a youngster.  (As with any human sense, it is possible that I am wrong.  But if never put any faith in my senses, where would that leave me? :3) And to be honest, for years I never really imagined Falco being with anyone in particular - he was gay, but alone - someone who wasn't actively dating or romancing with anyone in particular.  But he did seem to have a lot of...tension...at times, if that makes sense.  Mainly with male characters (like Fox or perhaps Leon in an antagonistic "Foe Yay" manner), in a way totally unlike his calm detached friendship with Katt.

Leon registers on my gaydar for decidedly more analytical reasons, and because he's gay in Japan anyway. XD Wolfox was right about this - they piled it on heavy in such a way that you can't mistake it. This is actually something that makes Leon less realistic of a character, because they scripted him with stereotypes, as a sort of dark comic relief with some stock character traits (the "camp gay").

Now, Vydrach, what you said about "based on how they dress" applies only to Wolf.  But this is not the only reason he registers on my gaydar.  As I once said before, Wolf is...kinky.  He has a personality that dominates men - he's mean to them, but that's..."sexy" (a lot of men have dom/sub fetishism, and this is also part of the leather culture, etc.).  He's almost like a male version of a dominatrix, but more toned down for a general audience.  His banter with Fox (especially in Assault) is full of moments that make gay men blush. XD But as with Leon, Wolf was also scripted with a degree of stereotype, with both developed personality traits and stock character traits (the "hard gay").

And finally, Fox trips my bidar (well, my gaydar, but it's also obvious that Fox finds women attractive), but mainly because of his interaction with Wolf.  There is ample UST (unresolved sexual tension) between him and Wolf, especially since Fox isn't exactly...indifferent...to Wolf's presence.  This may be something you have to have experienced first hand in a definite way to really understand.  Fox also has a certain...bromancing...with Falco, laced with antagonism and mutual putdowns.  If Fox does have a certain attraction to men, this adds a new dimension to his dynamic with Falco.  It is very possible that there's nothing extraordinary going on between them.  But if there was, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

And like I said, these impressions are rather powerful, and though my senses are not going to be infallible, my conclusions exceed my personal threshold for reasonable sensory doubt.  Short of characters being completely rewritten tomorrow, there really isn't anything that's going to shake these strong impressions.  The thing is, many people and characters who trip my gaydar, aren't even attractive to me.  Especially Leon, who is actually rather creepy. X3

And Milkyway64, I remember you once bringing up a possible Freudian explanation for the existence of gaydar (i.e. "you think someone is gay because you want them to be so you can do them").  Did you know that Freud also coined the term innate bisexuality, suggesting that the majority of people are innately attracted to both men and women, even if many of them identify only as straight or gay?  And though I never take everything Freud said as gospel, most of my friends and I do find it very credible that most people are innately bi, with a minority being unshakably straight or gay.  The thing is, many or most of these innately bi people would still identify as straight - they may find other attractive, but they may actively avoid it ("Stupid Sexy Flanders").  I have an unshakably straight friend (who is also gay-friendly) who theorizes that most homophobes out there are either innately gay or bi, and that 100% straight people are absolutely indifferent to and comfortable around gay things - it doesn't bother them at all.