Gene Inari Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 A simple question based on a rant I made elsewhere. Where did the series go wrong, where's the fault here? I think the only real fault of the SF series is the fact the series was pimped out by Nintendo to developers that just weren't given the time or tools to do the series justice. The first game was made by Nintendo's Entertainment Analysis and Development (EAD) Division, so it was developed by Nintendo internally, and started the series on a pioneering foot with 3D graphics on the SNES. Sure the 3D was pretty bare bones, but for the time and the system (they had to make a brand new chip to basically run the game), it was pretty badass. In the shadows of development, there was the "second" Star Fox game. The Star Fox 2 game never saw the light of day for one reason or another. Probably because development took so long and when the game was going to be ready, they would of been rolling out with the 64 and would be releasing a game for a system they were moving on from. In fact, it was so close to completion, that a simple patch to a ROM-hacked copy of the game made it complete. This one was made by the same people who made the first. I personally found this game really good despite it's radical departure of style from the first and got a spiritual successor in Command. Not only was the game completely different, but the team had two new additions, Fay and Miyu, meaning they could add to the team and change the gameplay dramatically without completely breaking the base into tiny little pieces. Then we get to SF64, the one game I'm pretty sure all of us grew up playing with, if not the original Starfox. This one was also developed by Nintendo EAD, so this is another game made with Nintendo's own hands. It re-booted the plot from the first game and the game kept going with pioneering new gaming technology. This time, force-feedback, basically the Rumble-pack that came with the game. This game was one of the reasons to own a 64 back then. To boot, the game is getting a remake for the new 3DS. And this is where we start getting into the problems of the series and the end of it's "golden days." At this point, I think it's safe to say we all know SF: Adventures wasn't the game it is now when it was first being developed by Rare. While developed by Rare, a (at the time) a first-party developer known for making real blockbuster games for the 64, the blame for the way the game turned out is a bit of a story. There are two versions of this story, and the one you believe depends upon who you ask and how cynical you feel about modern game design, but both eventually result in the game's development schedule being drawn out past the end of the N64's life cycle and then being pushed to the upcoming Nintendo GameCube: Version 1 holds that while examining preview material for Dinosaur Planet, Shigeru Miyamoto was struck by the similarity of Rare's designs for the protagonist, Sabre (a fox), to Fox McCloud. Miyamoto was reportedly so impressed with how the game was turning out that he called up the Rare development team and personally requested that they change the game to include Star Fox characters, and Rare agreed. Version 2 is less amiable, and claims that while Dinosaur Planet was in development, Nintendo was working on an in-house Star Fox title of their own, one that used planetary exploration as a game mechanic, but which was also far behind schedule. Nintendo began searching their third-party dev projects for more complete games that could be modified to suit their needs, and upon noticing the similarities between Dinosaur Planet's character designs and those of Star Fox, pressured Rare to change the game to use the Star Fox setting and be ready as a launch title for the Nintendo GameCube. This caused a split among the Rare leadership, half of whom wanted to obey Nintendo's wishes, and the other half who wanted to continue working on their own original IP. The debate dragged on so long that the N64 ceased production, which effectively ended development of Dinosaur Planet. Nintendo's strong-arming in this instance, combined with their low-key promotion of Rare's family-unfriendly Conker's Bad Fur Day, purportedly caused some bad blood between the two companies, ultimately leading Nintendo to sell their interest in Rare to Microsoft just after Adventures was released. And finally Assault (I haven't played Command, I can't offer an opinion on that, so I'm ending with Assault). Assault was developed by Namco, who are easily capable of turning out an awesome game. Take Ace Combat as an example. However, this wasn't quite the case with Assault. While the classic Arwing stages and the soundtrack is where this game really stands strong, the plot and ground game is where things get messy. The on foot controls are stiff and clunky and the missions are basically all the same "Go here and destroy X number of Y objectives." I believe that if Nintendo gave Namco the time it needed to make the game, instead of rushing it out the door, Assault would of been much better. Maybe not plot-wise, but I bet the ground gameplay and multiplayer would of had much more variety and a much better and have been a much more enjoyable game. All and all, I'd like to see the next SF game made by Ninteno's own hands again. Give the series the loves it needs. TL;DR I blame the developers and Nintendo, not the series itself. If Adventures didn't happen, Assault and Command probably wouldn't be the trainwrecks they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkyway64 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I didn't read the entire thing, but the TL:DR summary I agree with. Here's a post I made in the "Star Fox Adventures Continued" thread: It's called "Star Fox Assault." Anyhow, no. Being Zelda is NOT what SF should try to do. Adventures was, while a decent game, and abomination to the SF franchise because it totally killed the universe with SUDDENLY MAGITECH AND TRIBAL GIRLS that were no where to be found in anyhing pre 64 (including promo works) and Assault made it worse. Let's count some of the offenses. Using the base that Star Fox is a science fiction staring anthros under the main plot of The Greatest Team of All Time taking down a powerful mad scientist corrupting and killing the galaxy, here's a list of things that don't belong. -Magic -Ancient civilizations with magitech capable of glueing planets back together -said civilization setting undisturbed on a planet not only mapped by Coneria, but presumably the rest of the galaxy as well. These guys are SUPER ADVANCED and built stuff on ZONESS. Why would they leave Sauria alone? Makes no sense. Moving on. -People who don't know what pants are. Okay, yes, I'm talking about Krystal and her bikini clad sack of contradictions. As I pointed out, this galaxy is SUPER ADVANCED and society is not only there, but evolved. There is no reason for Krystal or an assumed race to look like that in this setting, leading on to the next point: -Krystal knows technology. Tribal? BULLSHIT. A primitive woman running around Dinosaur Planet eating eggs does NOT become a part of The Greatest Team of All Time in 2 years, and in Adventures she even flies a space ship to meet up with Fox in his flashy space fortress which she is unimpressed with. WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY AIMING FOR WITH KRYSTAL. Short answer, they wasn't. Long answer, she's a remnant from a totally diffferent series and setting shoehorned into where she doesn't belong along with a good chunk of her game which did nothing but bad in the long run. Assault TRIED to fix it but through a mixture of sucking too and the series being too far gone it was unable to. Krystal not only single handedly keeps the mythos from recovering ("Ooooh, I'm an ancient psychic who doesn't help nearly as much as it sounds like I would on paper!") but also has the obligation of a romantic sub plot that doesn't go anywhere since there was no build or chemistry to it in the FIRST DAMN PLACE. I'm being serious. Fox never, ever learns Krystal's name in Adventures. Fox's only interest in her at all was tapping dat seeing as they never spoke and he was head over heals over what amounts to a PlayFox hologram that he might get to play with as long as he doesn't die. If you haven't figured it out, Adventures, everything that came with it, and everything that came after was an abomination because SF:A was pretty much poison to a developing scifi series. Dumping more of that poison on top of it is NOT going to fix it, and there's no excuse for wanting it. Want an updated, much improved Adventures? Play Twilight Princess. Want to know what happens next in the plot? Play Assault and try not to cry. Wanna know about Krystal's past and where she came from? They're never telling us and if we do, all it's gonna do is make Star Fox an even bigger mess than it already is. Wanna see Krystal's mostly naked body again? Get off SFO and go to deviantart. Basically, Adventures wrecked the entire thing because of a bad decision to merge Dinosaur Planet with the Star Fox series. Krystal keeps it wrecked, embodying elements of what derailed it so bad in her very character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zorro de la Estrella Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Personally, I find Adventures and Assault to be the best SF titles. But, I would have to agree that Nintendo is to blame for SF's downfall. ASSAULT COULD'VE BEEN SO MUCH MORE!!! Still kick-ass though It's like Anthro Starship Troopers!!!! And Fox is Johnny Rico! But yeah, give Assault more time in the cooker and we could've had a Dream game. EDIT: Never played Command, but based on universal complaints I won't play it anyways :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticQuery Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I'm going to agree on almost all points stated; if the series had more time and effort put into it, it wouldn't be in the mess that it is in today. The titles actually developed by Nintendo EAD, in-house, are notable for the fact that the majority of the fanbase agrees they are the best games of them all. Once the license was "loaned-out," things began to go downhill. Rare's foray into the series was quite an interesting one; though it is painfully obvious that something else had been adapted into a Star Fox game; elements familiar with the series just aren't present for the most part, and new elements that are introduced, either in gameplay or story, just don't match up correctly. Namco did an adequate job, though I'm sure if they had extra time and/or resources, Assault would've turned out a bit better too; the controls and mission type/structure could've definitely used some refining. What can I say about Command....it was absolutely horrible from a Star Fox standpoint, though decent from a handled game standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Inari Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 ...it was absolutely horrible from a Star Fox standpoint, though decent from a handled game standpoint. Yeah, keyword: Decent. Starfox is and deserves more than "decent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticQuery Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Yeah, keyword: Decent. Starfox is and deserves more than "decent." I couldn't agree with you more; the series has SO MUCH potential, though Nintendo just seems to play it safe with Mario, Zelda, and occasionally Metroid. It's a shame, really. Though hopefully Project Cafe will rectify my problems with the Wii, deliver a true gaming experience, and give us a GOOD Star Fox game in HD! . (Really, an HD space-landscape would be beautiful ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluxy Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 The 3DS remake, IMO, is where the series will start going Right. At the begining, Fox McCloud and his pals -were- the top shit of nintendo, and that is because they had a great idea, and stuck to it. Now, Adventures, they took anouther game, and remade it in a SF theme without giving it much editing. Good game, yes. Good Star Fox game, no. Assault. They took the age old concept from the begining, added higher graphics, but then added anouther aspect. Now, IMO, all the game needed was 2-3 more things. *Have better graphics, as it stood no chance from the graphics of Adventures. *Have more editing. The game was so unrefined that it was a little pathetic. *More play time. Gah, the fact I beat that game in like, 30-40 min kinda pisses me off almost. In the long run, as others have already said, the reason this remake will be successful is because it had large time and effort into it, and is refined. So long as Nintendo gives some more love to Star Fox this time around, I have no fear that we will start seeing a bit more of Fox McCloud around, as well as all his friends. ...Possibly a good outfit/look too. =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 What's the problem? KRYSTAL :krystal: SERIES DERAILED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonking44 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 You never know, hopefully after the Star Fox 643DS is out they may try bring back the series in action once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze the Sage Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I agree with Milky on most counts, the only thing I disagree with is Assault being a bad game. From a "fitting into the series" standpoint, you can taeke out Krystal, or replace her with any random face (just for the hell of it, let's say Miyu or Faye), remove the Sauria stage, and bam, problem solved on that end. Anything else you might have a problem with is an issue with the Aparoids, not anything spawned from Dinosaur Planet, and that's another issue altogether. It was a fun game, and personally, I LIKED the on-foot sections, it's simply true that there's not a lot of variety in them. My only complaint about them is that there's not enough incentive to use alternate weapons. All you need is a machine gun, a sniper or rocket launcher, and the blaster (and really, the first two are optional), and you're perfectly equipped to deal with any threat in the land missions. The game itself is good, more time and resources spent on it would simply accomplish more of a fun game, rather than a more fun game, if you know what I'm trying to say there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkyway64 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I agree with Milky on most counts, the only thing I disagree with is Assault being a bad game. From a "fitting into the series" standpoint, you can taeke out Krystal, or replace her with any random face (just for the hell of it, let's say Miyu or Faye), remove the Sauria stage, and bam, problem solved on that end. Anything else you might have a problem with is an issue with the Aparoids, not anything spawned from Dinosaur Planet, and that's another issue altogether. It was a fun game, and personally, I LIKED the on-foot sections, it's simply true that there's not a lot of variety in them. My only complaint about them is that there's not enough incentive to use alternate weapons. All you need is a machine gun, a sniper or rocket launcher, and the blaster (and really, the first two are optional), and you're perfectly equipped to deal with any threat in the land missions. The game itself is good, more time and resources spent on it would simply accomplish more of a fun game, rather than a more fun game, if you know what I'm trying to say there. I suppose you're right. Assault's biggest sin is it's length and only have -3- classic Arwing levels. Not only that, but on foot was pretty lazy to be quite honest. Space and the arwings looked BEAUTIFUL but then Fox himself took a noticeable downgrade from what they teased us with in Adventures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Nintendo Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 ^All I can say for the recent SF games like Assault, Adventures and Command. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thu'um Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 well i think it happened slowly, as the the series slwoly declined, at first it was advnetrues, its left some plot wholes and such and introduced a new charcter that neintendo hadn't really planed yet The when assualt came in they tried to develop a krystal fox realtion ship and instead should have developed krystal as a independent charcter before a love intrest. then after fans split between not liking krystal( due to lack of development) and liking krystal (cause of love intrest) then comand was made and we as they say " and the rest was history" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Elite Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 about 8 years after the battle of Venom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thu'um Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Elite Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 explain Battle of Venom, fast-forward 8 years and we arrive at Sauria, the planet's in shambles and the Krazoa's are all over the place. Oh, and there's a woman trapped in a giant namesake, but that's beside the point. Many people think that Adventures wasn't the best thing for Star Fox. I can see some point of logic in this, turning a flying game into an on-foot Adventure game? It's like using a permanent marker on a white-board, it works, but it's a radical unalterable change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticQuery Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Many people think that Adventures wasn't the best thing for Star Fox. I can see some point of logic in this, turning a flying game into an RPG? It's like using a permanent marker on a white-board, it works, but it's a radical unalterable change. Good way of articulating the circumstance, I must say. Though, Adventures was, as the title suggests, an "Adventure" game, and not an RPG. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiana Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Neither Assault nor Adventures were properly completed, allegedly. Adventures kept glitching out and there was strain with Rare being sold to Microsoft, and as I remember Assault was part of the doomed Triforce arcade project. What the biggest problem, I figure, was the writers of the games being afraid to mess with the unsolidified original canon of the games. They wrote around the big questions we all had, regarding James, Star Wolf...essentially any of the character history, because they were unsure if the original writers had anything in mind. What this wound up doing was screwing up the rules of the universe and character history even more, because they wrote to imply characterization, but because they wrote around the base of said characterization, they just made everything even more inconsistant and confusing. This is Krystal, this is Wolf morphing from snotty Brit to biker, this is a constant defaulting on GIANT HOARDES OF ALIENS INVADE LYLAT, GO KILL THEM as they're a "safe" villain. Though at least Command attempted to weave the plot into the overarching story of Star Fox, the fact that it had no discernable canon basically undoes anything it tried to do for the plot (which is both good and bad). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Orange Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 It went wrong on Command for its multiple Endings. Krystal going w/ panther, with fox. blah blah blah. It all just a piece of :censored: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwing_93 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Adventures deviated the series from the natural direction that a sci fi canon usually takes. God knows, if adventures had never happened we may have seen a sequel to SF64 on the gamecube with totally new characters (Miyu and Fay?) and a totally different canon storyline. There would certainly be no Sauria, no Tricky, no magic and telepathy, and NO KRYSTAL!!!!! This isn't really a qualm I have with the series direction, but one thing that annoys me is that they decided to leave 8 years between 64 and Adventures. Now 2-3 years I would understand, and you can't have Lylat in peril every 2 minutes, but 8 years is a very long time, even with Farewell Beloved Falco in the middle. You honestly expect us to believe that Peppy, Slippy and Fox floated through space for 8 years waiting for something to happen? No wonder Fox is so crap with female attention if Krystal and Katt are the two only women he sees in 8 years! Assault tried to bring back the feel of 64, but had to work with the characters and conventions established in adventures, so the entire presence of Sauria and Krystal still had a confusig impact. Krystal wasn't offensive in Assault, but should have never been in the series in the first place, so her entire presence summarises how Assault was trying to combine the events of Adventures into a shooter game, and lets not even get into the issue of "how is Krystal suddenly a skilled Pilot". Command isn't worth discussing as no ending is set in stone, but the storyline was essentially Assault/64 rehashed with some unnecessarily overaught subplot about the team breaking up, and no more needs to be said really. So yeah, I just think the way the series has been pawned off to developers who all try to steer the game in different directions has lead to an inconsistent storyine and games with fun but unremarkable gameplay. I'd love to know what direction Miyamoto intended the series to go in, and unless they decide to just hastily gloss over Sauria in future games and play down Krystals Mary Sue quaities, I think the only way we can see the series get back on track would be yet another ret con. SF643D could be a fresh slate guys :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameMasterGuy Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I Blame Stoch. /haloreference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thu'um Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 It went wrong on Command for its multiple Endings. Krystal going w/ panther, with fox. blah blah blah. It all just a piece of amen halaluya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Orange Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Adventures deviated the series from the natural direction that a sci fi canon usually takes. God knows, if adventures had never happened we may have seen a sequel to SF64 on the gamecube with totally new characters (Miyu and Fay?) and a totally different canon storyline. There would certainly be no Sauria, no Tricky, no magic and telepathy, and NO KRYSTAL!!!!! This isn't really a qualm I have with the series direction, but one thing that annoys me is that they decided to leave 8 years between 64 and Adventures. Now 2-3 years I would understand, and you can't have Lylat in peril every 2 minutes, but 8 years is a very long time, even with Farewell Beloved Falco in the middle. You honestly expect us to believe that Peppy, Slippy and Fox floated through space for 8 years waiting for something to happen? No wonder Fox is so crap with female attention if Krystal and Katt are the two only women he sees in 8 years! Assault tried to bring back the feel of 64, but had to work with the characters and conventions established in adventures, so the entire presence of Sauria and Krystal still had a confusig impact. Krystal wasn't offensive in Assault, but should have never been in the series in the first place, so her entire presence summarises how Assault was trying to combine the events of Adventures into a shooter game, and lets not even get into the issue of "how is Krystal suddenly a skilled Pilot". NO KRYSTAL!!! Blaphamy! Without her, I can't Think of what the game would be like. Well i Could, But think of the KrystalFans!:o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkyway64 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 NO KRYSTAL!!! Blaphamy! Without her, I can't Think of what the game would be like. Well i Could, But think of the KrystalFans! It's easy to imagine what it'd be like. It'd be better, for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Orange Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 It's easy to imagine what it'd be like. It'd be better, for one. sure, your opinion. But then there would be no Panther, Tricky, or any of the other Adventure Charicters. Now what happens next? (awating Krystal fans and haters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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