Where did Starfox go wrong?

[Rogue Fox]

So when has this thread gone from what is wrong with the series to a rant on Krystal?

Well I guess if it's gone down this road, I can add my two cents.

First Krystal is not the cause of of fall of the Star Fox series. Period. A charcter is just one part of a game. You have other things like game play, plot, graphics, controls, level difficulty, music, etc. While some aspects Nintendo has done right, they have mainly screwed up on plot, game play, controls, and level difficulty, especially in Assault. This is a big no no for a game developer to screw up these things.

Secondly, I do think that Krystal should have been presented better. She should have had equal play time in Adventures which would save her from the damsel in distress stereotype. Assault was just awful, so while I like they made her more of a team member, they still made her a secondary character like Slippy or Falco. So naturally she, like the others is just there for cut scenes and being saved. This has been the model ever since 64.

Third, ah the blame game. I see lots of this happening and it seems like there will be no end. When you get down to it, the one to blame is Nintendo. They created her, they decided how she would factor into the plot, they determined how she would interact with the other characters.

So what is to be done? Right now Nintendo can proceed with the series or restart it. I'm not sure if the 3DS version of 64 is a sign for revamping everything. If they continue with the series or revamp, they should add more of a plot to her character, like her backstory.

I don't feel like removing her from the series will magically make it 100% better. Nintendo has to clean much more in terms with plot, controls and difficulty.

[Guest Mr. Nintendo]

When you get down to it, the one to blame is Nintendo. They created her, they decided how she would factor into the plot, they determined how she would interact with the other characters.

>implying that Rare made Krystal and sold her to Nintendo before shifting gears with Microsoft.

[Thu'um]

All right, pop quiz.

Who do you have to save alot in Assault whenever he/she is in danger? Answer: Krystal! -1

Why didn't Krystal run away or at least fight Andross (Or Scales) before he was behind her and pushed her into the beam in Adventures? Answer: Beats the hell outta me but I would NOT call Standing around like a bloody idiot bravery. -1

When was Krystal ever brave in Command? Answer: When Fox told her to leave SF and when she left SW, that is it. 0

Score: -2 (Krystal is offically, a coward no matter how many times you say she is brave.)

actualy we have (and many times) proved that krystal and flaco are saved an equal amount of times in assualt.

She attaked scales, but he over powered her, and had she tried to run, where would she have gone on a floating vessele?

And in command no charcter was as the should have been, and nothing is cannon after the intro.

MR. Nientendo: terminated

[Guest Mr. Nintendo]

actualy we have (and many times) proved that krystal and flaco are saved an equal amount of times in assualt.

Touche.

She attaked scales, but he over powered her, and had she tried to run, where would she have gone on a floating vessele?

I'm talking about in the Krazoa Palace, not in the Galleon. I don't think you understood that post. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aJROW6cuEM

[Robert Monroe]

Krystal is ultimately a nonfactor in the demise of the franchise. In Adventures she may as well just not been there, in Assault she was no worse than anyone else as far as horrible writing goes, and Command the series was already sinking so yeah.

[Milkyway64]

She attaked scales, but he over powered her, and had she tried to run, where would she have gone on a floating vessele?

And in command no charcter was as the should have been, and nothing is cannon after the intro.

Maybe she SHOULDN'T have tried to fistfight the 20 foot tall fortress of muscle and steel in front of her, and she MIGHT have been able to run to the cloudrunner she told to go because she could take it from there.

Bravery not found. However, what I DID find was an urge to call Krystal a moron.

I don't feel like removing her from the series will magically make it 100% better. Nintendo has to clean much more in terms with plot, controls and difficulty.

Debatable. It wouldn't fix anything per se, but it's a start. One of the best things they could do to get back on track is retconning almost everything past Adventures. No on foot Zelda bullcrap, no teases of a real starfox game by making the demo an on rails shooter and then slamming more foot missions on us. No Krystal to obligate a romance plot or to birth the soap opera that was Command. No tribal women on a planet that should be colonized and no magitech. Geez.

Hey, like SF64 3DS! It's giving Krystal the boot and has a vague possibility of rebooting the series, and will almost definitely be GOOD.

[Rogue Fox]

The trick is that Nintendo is fighting its own success with 64 in terms with any other games, new or retconned. To the jaded, nothing will be as good as 64. The 3DS version further brings to light.

But there is a plus side to this fact of 64 being the one everything else is compared to. All future games to be successful is to create the same type as 64 with adding new characters, missions, and bosses. Simple and easy for the series to be fixed.

[Milkyway64]

The trick is that Nintendo is fighting its own success with 64 in terms with any other games, new or retconned. To the jaded, nothing will be as good as 64. The 3DS version further brings to light.

To the simple minded hipsters, maybe. I'm the type who believes Twilight Princess outshines OoT. I believe Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 made SM64 look bad. My favorite Metroid game is Zero Mission rather than Super, which everybody loves. So don't even pull that nostalgia card, Adventures, Assault, and Command are legitimately bad and a disgrace.

But there is a plus side to this fact of 64 being the one everything else is compared to. All future games to be successful is to create the same type as 64 with adding new characters, missions, and bosses. Simple and easy for the series to be fixed.

That's what should have been done from the beginning. 64 was exactly that in following to SNES starfox. Then Adventures came and we have Zelda with furry Link. Noooo.

[Falconman]

^All I can say for the recent SF games like Assault, Adventures and Command.

ditto

[Rogue Fox]

Something I wonder going back on the topic of where Star Fox has gone wrong.

Has people left Star Fox due to in part looking for more realistic games that feature human characters?

Considering the games that people talk about as greatest hits (Assassin's Creed, Halo, God of War, Prince of Persia, Bioshock, Call of Duty) they all feature human characters.

Just a strange observation that I noticed.

[Milkyway64]

/Starfox 64

/Not a greatest hit

wat?

Also, Donkey Kong Country, Sonic the Hedgehog, Banjo Kazooie, etc

Look at more than just ex bawx for games.

[Dr. Orange]

:popcorn:

[Starwing_93]

I think what Rogue Fox is getting at is by looking at the popular "hardcore" games of this generation it is true that all feature human characters, but you cannot call this the reason Star Fox is "failing". Star Fox is not a hardcore game in the sense of Call of duty or Halo, as it's aimed at a different target audience where anthros are appropriate character forms. SF is far from a kids game, think of all the shit that gets blown up, but is at the same time not designed to appeal to the "hardcore" crowd as it's not as gritty or edgy as those mentioned previously, and this is no bad thing.

Starfox to me, in theory, defines a game that is appealing pretty much anyone, because the lack of gore and animal characters make it suitable to kids and people who don't like a realistic take on war, but the gameplay style is fun and challenging enough to appeal to older players, hell, a majority of the fan base are all over 15. I'm not saying there won't be some wannabe cool kids out there that take one look at the animals and deem it as "too childish" or "not as cool as COD because it has no blood", but that's probably just a minority who are missing out on a ton of great games alltogether.

So whilst in theory Starfox has it all in it's favour, it's the gameplay in recent years that has let it down, plain and simple. Unresponsive controls and poor on foot segments contradict the idea that the key appeal is in the gameplay. There's no saying that plot and characters aren't an important factor for the potential audience, however you can make the characters and plot as cool and edgy as you want, but if the gameplay sucks then it's not going to sell well with the fickle general public.

[Shadow Matrix]

Krystal is ultimately a nonfactor in the demise of the franchise. In Adventures she may as well just not been there, in Assault she was no worse than anyone else as far as horrible writing goes, and Command the series was already sinking so yeah.

Dude,since I see a lot of Krystal shit going on. I'ma reveal my two cents about her compared to the team So far.. ALMOST EVERY single character in the games are more useful then her... All the characters have done something INCREDIBLY good and mannaged to outplay Krystal.

Slippy, he gives data and information in Star Fox 64. IN adventures, Slippy gave you way points and information on where to go to next in your mission. In assault, he gave more data and the health of an enemy.. IT WAS ACTUALLY USEFUL and A Priority to keep Slippy Alive at all costs, because he did something good..

Falco, in starfox 64 he was good, he didn't request for help much. IN adventures, HE came out of nowhere at the end of the mission and helped you with the final boss by giving you items... IN Assault, he doesnt need much help. OH WAIT NO! He actually HELPED FOX from dieing from the Aparoids, and let Fox ride on his wing and get him out alive. So yeah he is pretty badass.

Peppy, in starfox 64.. He told you your controls. Press up and B to do a somersault or somethhing. In Adventures he helped you out, IN assault he told you how to roll AND TO ROLL and deflect attacks... So he was pretty damn helpful..

WOLF. The enemy of Starfox from the begining. They actually HELP You on the final mission of Assault. Lets also not forget he Saved Fox from a ceratain death by using his wolfen to catch Fox from falling down to his death.

Bill. He was immortal, he actually had dual lasers and shot some stuff down. He helped you on the Solar mission a bit.

Kat. Helped you with the Missiles in Sector Z, which was your main objective. Which waa to prevent the missiles from hitting the Great Fox.

All those compared to Krystal.. Who you had TO save just because Fox wanted to get a relationship with her going on.... So far, throughout the whole series All she did.. Was Bitch for help, "GET A MOVE ON FOX! I'M DIEING OVER HERE. " after 2 seconds of being attacked. She bitched for help in Advnetures... IN assault, she did absoultely nothing to help you.. She just says this. "I SENSE SOMETHING..... I SENSE SOMETHING..... OH FOX I FANCY YOU... " In Command, she bitched and cried and tried to get revenge on you by joining your rival's team.. She did nothing helpful throughout the whole series. While you got People Like Slippy who a lot of people don't like, still doing more supportive things then Krystal who A LOT OF PEOPLE LOVE! for just her looks..... Krystal don't do much but FLY around and draw attention..

Honestly all the characters I listed above, who were characters people didn't like, didn't know about.. They were random.. And characters who were enemies of Star Fox.. MANNAGED to help you greatly. BUT krystal, she has done nothing but flirt with you and say "I SENSE SOMETHING! " thats it. Her telepathical powers are not that helpful..

Krystal: Such strange thought patterns.

Fox: Uhmmm Okay? So is it going to be hard to kill?

Krystal: Such Strange thought patterns.

Aparoid -Charges Laser-

Fox: Uhmm Krystal, I don't think the patterns indicate whether or not its going to shoot you and kill you or be tough to kill.

Krystal; Such strange thought patterns.

-Fires Laser-

Krystal evades. : AHHH

Fox:............ Really? I expected that to happen to Slippy, but you Krystal.. Really? MAN this is ridiclous. I'm Booting your ass out in Command cause your just trying to get yourself killed. I have to boot you off the team cause I don't want to be hated at by the Krystal fans for me not saving your dumbass from getting killed by the enemy.

[LoneWolf]

You know, if Nintendo had done with StarFox what Activision had done with Call of Duty, the series would probably be thriving right now. Remake the first game (or SF64 in this case) with better graphics, a new story, and THE SAME gameplay. Sure it would have been just the slightest bit boring, but then, as with COD, they could create a new game that keeps the same formula but adds new elements.

Anyone get what I'm saying here?

[Shadow Matrix]

You know, if Nintendo had done with StarFox what Activision had done with Call of Duty, the series would probably be thriving right now. Remake the first game (or SF64 in this case) with better graphics, a new story, and THE SAME gameplay. Sure it would have been just the slightest bit boring, but then, as with COD, they could create a new game that keeps the same formula but adds new elements.

Anyone get what I'm saying here?

Hell yeah, and make the AI a little more better... New graphics for an old game that we all loved. Blah blah. Keep the story intresting and thriving.. That way it doesn't end up being like StarCraft 2, where we have to wait a decade for the game to come out.

[Thu'um]

Krystal is ultimately a nonfactor in the demise of the franchise. In Adventures she may as well just not been there, in Assault she was no worse than anyone else as far as horrible writing goes, and Command the series was already sinking so yeah.

while she deffinatly isn't the most important character does that make her one that should be removed? she also was pretty standerd as importance in assualt but i do enjoy her mor then most characters in any seires of anything.

Maybe she SHOULDN'T have tried to fistfight the 20 foot tall fortress of muscle and steel in front of her, and she MIGHT have been able to run to the cloudrunner she told to go because she could take it from there.

Bravery not found. However, what I DID find was an urge to call Krystal a moron.

Debatable. It wouldn't fix anything per se, but it's a start. One of the best things they could do to get back on track is retconning almost everything past Adventures. No on foot Zelda bullcrap, no teases of a real starfox game by making the demo an on rails shooter and then slamming more foot missions on us. No Krystal to obligate a romance plot or to birth the soap opera that was Command. No tribal women on a planet that should be colonized and no magitech. Geez.

She attacked to him to try'in save the infiant that scales was tourchering, i think i might have done it to!

and just droping a charcter doesn't fix anything. and while krystal shouldn't be droped she doesnt need to be the center of the problem like in command. she should be like every other character, just there acting like they are suppose to.

And throwing out krystal because of her part in command is understanble, but god all the charcters in that were horrible so then why don't we just through them all out?

[Drasiana]

Krystal still failed to do anything in that scene. She didn't save the CloudRunner, she didn't do something to thwart Scales, she lost her weapon and then escaped only to be trapped minutes later by Andross' Inexplicable Ghost, where she continued to do nothing for the rest of the game. I guess she shot his ship a few times but this didn't seem to impede Scales at all.

Considering the games that people talk about as greatest hits (Assassin's Creed, Halo, God of War, Prince of Persia, Bioshock, Call of Duty) they all feature human characters.

I really hope you aren't implying FURSECUTION as the reason for Star Fox's less-than-notable current popularity.

You know why these games have done good? Because they have a sustainable premise and do a good job of either improving upon or even perfecting existing gameplay elements WHILE often bringing something new to the table. The original Star Fox contributed with its 3D graphics. Star Fox 64 did that in its use of the Rumble Pak, the voiceovers, and the overall cinematic feel. What have the other Starfox games brought to push the bar of gaming, or at least utilize pre-existing conventions to make the game worthwhile? Nothing. Adventures was a Zelda clone and Assault was a generic shooter. Command kind of tried with its whole weird RPG/Strategy element but failed in the sense that every level was identical and no attempt was made to change up the gameplay.

[Dublinthefox]

You know why these games have done good? Because they have a sustainable premise and do a good job of either improving upon or even perfecting existing gameplay elements WHILE often bringing something new to the table. The original Star Fox contributed with its 3D graphics. Star Fox 64 did that in its use of the Rumble Pak, the voiceovers, and the overall cinematic feel. What have the other Starfox games brought to push the bar of gaming, or at least utilize pre-existing conventions to make the game worthwhile? Nothing. Adventures was a Zelda clone and Assault was a generic shooter. Command kind of tried with its whole weird RPG/Strategy element but failed in the sense that every level was identical and no attempt was made to change up the gameplay.

So the series was only created to introduce new console peripherals and features?

[Drasiana]

Well, that was an original intention. But I'm not trying to say Star Fox is only worth it as an advertisement for some sort of new console feature. However, especially with the currently exploding game industry and all the competition it entails, it would be pertinent for the series to start thinking about upping the ante.

This means a higher standard of gameplay and story. Think about games like Mass Effect 2 and Bioshock; they did so well because they excelled in both regards.

[Robert Monroe]

I love everyone jumping on me about Krystal when I haven't even taken a side for her.

She is a NONfactor. She might as well NOT BE THERE. Got it now? I know everyone else in the series is more "useful" than her, but in Assault, EVERYONE got horrible OOC writing, not just Krystal. She has done nothing detrimental or supplemental to the franchise at ALL. She is simply THERE.

[psy_commando]

I'd say that there are a couple of times Starfox went wrong.

First of all, there's a persistent trend of "sloppy ideas" that started with the cancelling of Starfox 2. Then the whole idea of rebooting starfox snes, don't get me wrong though, sf64 is one of my favorite games, but you don't just reboot a franchise just for the heck of it!

Continuing on the sloppy idea trend, there was the completely unexplainable sudden brain fart on the part of Miyamoto ( cube.ign.com/articles/092/092024p1.html ), who suddenly decided it was an awesome idea to turn an almost already complete, unrelated game, into a Starfox game. The resulting game doesn't even hold together, it's filled with holes, and obvious patches. The plot is set in a completely unrelated universe, which completely paradox with Starfox's. The result is a deep black hole of a game. It's deep, it's fun on the outside, but inexplicable on the inside, and takes everything around(the rest of the franchise) down with it.

While Krystal isn't to blame for the problems of the SF franchise, she is the favored representation for some of its problems. She completely stands out, and is completely out of place. And worst of all, some of the remains from dinosaur planets that hurt the most SF Adventure, were kept only to help Kristal fit in, like the magical staff or General cheap plotwist Scales. Keeping her in the final game is another "just for the heck of it" choice. So you can't really blame the character I guess, but she still represents one of the biggest mistake in the series.

Next sloppy idea, handing out the franchise to third parties!! Rare and Argonaut weren't third parties, they were second parties, which mean, they are supported by Nintendo in exchange for making games only on Nintendo platform. Argonaut, was technically "supporting" the Nintendo dev team, they mostly made the game code, and the super fx chip. And Rare were very close with Nintendo at the time, they had been working on Donkey Kong for a while, which justify their capabilities to work on a Nintendo IP.

But Namco and Q-games, are completely autonomous entities. And they don't have any particular aptitudes at making good games, or handling a Nintendo franchise ! Haven't they had their lesson from the abyssal Zelda CDI ?

Another problem with the franchise, that contributed to make it turn wrong, is that it's having an identity crisis, most of the games have been inconsistent in quality and in concept, they just warp even more the already distorted identity of the franchise.

[Dr. Orange]

And worst of all, some of the remains from dinosaur planets that hurt the most SF Adventure, were kept only to help Kristal fit in, like the magical staff or General cheap plotwist Scales.

What ever happened to the staff anyways?

There, another problem.

[Milkyway64]

It was put away because in a world with infinite ammo laser pistols, machine guns, and GATLING GUNS that shred tanks, not to mention said tanks and of course the arwings, it was frankly useless. Like Krystal herself. =V

[Rogue Fox]

I really hope you aren't implying FURSECUTION as the reason for Star Fox's less-than-notable current popularity.

I didn't say fursecution. I only said that perhaps people are looking for more human characters. Preferences in game genres and content do change over time.

Plus as mentioned in former threads, I may be someone who likes furries, but I am way above the petty drama of people whining about fursecution.